Precision Bass Pickup: Lollar vs FCS. Need some advice.

[tb-player]

I have a Fender Custom Shop Empire ‘58 Precision. It’s beautiful and plays really well. I love the look, the weight and the neck. Really beautiful bass. However, I’ve struggled with the tone. The pickup is custom designed for Empire Music, the shop where it was purchased. It sounds decent, but it has a slight harshness when it’s wide open. I can sort of dial it out with the tone knob, but it’s not exactly the p-bass tone I have in my head.

My favorite sounding precision bass I’ve ever owned is a Nash PB57. Those basses come with a Lollar pickup and they sound absolutely fantastic. And even though I’ve tried and tried, I just don’t get on with the baseball bat shaped neck. I’ve owned a few and always end up selling them for a P with the wide-flat neck. But then I miss the Nash tone and start shopping again… it’s a vicious cycle.

So I’m thinking, why not just buy a Lollar pickup and put it in my FCS. It costs 160-bucks and only takes a couple of solders. My FCS has similar woods. It could be a relatively cheap and easy fix, right?

Or is there another component I’m missing or not considering?

 

[Jefenator]

My pickup search ended with Lollar in not just one or two but THREE different types: SCPB, J and P. I guess you could say I'm really smelling their cooking.
It's always a bit of a crapshoot, but based on your own history, I would say swapping in a Lollar would absolutely be worth a shot!

 

[40Hz]

27498717[/URL], member: 339949"]It could be a relatively cheap and easy fix, right?

It’s a very easy install. Just take the time after the installation to get the pickup height adjusted exactly to your taste and playing style.

27498717[/URL], member: 339949"]Or is there another component I’m missing or not considering?

Not really. You might want to look at the values of the capacitor and pots. Standard PBasses use two 250K pots and a .047 capacitor. Some basses use 500K pots and a lower value capacitor to get a “brighter” sound. Quick rule of thumb: higher resistance value and/or lower capacitor value = brighter more high frequency sound. Lower resistance and/or higher capacitance values = darker more low frequency sound.

Also look to see if there’s what’s called a “treble bleed” on the volume pot. If there is there will be a small capacitor and (usually) a resistor wired across two lugs on the volume pot. That keeps lowering the volume knob from also effectively turning down the tone knob a bit. It’s one of those things you either really like or don’t. I don’t because it changes the way the classic PB tonestack works. And I’m used to the classic way and don’t much like a trebly bass. But that’s me.

As far as pickups go, Lollar is one of several equally good pickup choices, as are: Aguilar, Fralin, Klein, DiMarzio, Seymour-Duncan, Bare Knuckle, Bartolini, and so on. The differences between them are relatively minor sound-wise so don’t get too hung up on pickup choices. For that way madness lies. If Lollars sound good to you then go for a Lollar.

Note: Your strings will have a far bigger effect on your overall sound than your pickups or wiring will. I have different strings on almost every bass I own and I’m firmly convinced there’s a “perfect” set for every bass. So if you aren’t married to a string set, don’t be afraid to try different strings. It’s the least invasive and least expensive of any modification you can make to your current bass setup. I had one bass I was never completely happy with (it was bit too aggressive) until I finally found one set of strings that turned it into an entirely different beast. It’s since become my main player. So draw what conclusions you will.

Luck!

 

[tb-player]

It’s a very easy install. Just take the time after the installation to get the pickup height adjusted exactly to your taste and playing style.



Not really. You might want to look at the values of the capacitor and pots. Standard PBasses use two 250K pots and a .047 capacitor. Some basses use 500K pots and a lower value capacitor to get a “brighter” sound. Quick rule of thumb: higher resistance value and/or lower capacitor value = brighter more high frequency sound. Lower resistance and/or higher capacitance values = darker more low frequency sound.

Also look to see if there’s what’s called a “treble bleed” on the volume pot. If there is there will be a small capacitor and (usually) a resistor wired across two lugs on the volume pot. That keeps lowering the volume knob from also effectively turning down the tone knob a bit. It’s one of those things you either really like or don’t. I don’t because it changes the way the classic PB tonestack works. And I’m used to the classic way and don’t much like a trebly bass. But that’s me.

As far as pickups go, Lollar is one of several equally good pickup choices, as are: Aguilar, Fralin, Klein, DiMarzio, Seymour-Duncan, Bare Knuckle, Bartolini, and so on. The differences between them are relatively minor sound-wise so don’t get too hung up on pickup choices. For that way madness lies. If Lollars sound good to you then go for a Lollar.

Note: Your strings will have a far bigger effect on your overall sound than your pickups or wiring will. I have different strings on almost every bass I own and I’m firmly convinced there’s a “perfect” set for every bass. So if you aren’t married to a string set, don’t be afraid to try different strings. It’s the least invasive and least expensive of any modification you can make to your current bass setup. I had one bass I was never completely happy with (it was bit too aggressive) until I finally found one set of strings that turned it into an entirely different beast. It’s since become my main player. So draw what conclusions you will.

Luck!

Thanks for that. I don’t know anything about pots or resistors. I guess if I’m trying to replicate the Nash sound, I should probably search for some schematics to compare. That should open up more cans of worms… lol

 

[40Hz]

You’re welcome.

About all you need to know about pots when it comes to a PB is to pick value between 250K and 500K. However, 250K and 500K are the most common. The 250K pot will sound darker abd mellower. The 500K will give you a brighter sounding bass.

Pot come in two tapers - audio and linear. Both get used, but I’d strongly suggest sticking with the audio taper for starters unless you have a reason to do otherwise.

Capacitors are made from a variety of materials. Ceramic and polyester veing the two most readily available. Some people insist some types of exotic (and expensive!) capacitors such as “paper-in-oil” or “bumblebee” varieties - sound different and more musical than others. And a whole industry has sprung up to cater to that belief which I consider pure snake oil salesmanship. I’ve wired a large number of guitars and basses over the last 40+ years. And my experience has been that the material a cap is made from makes absolutely no difference in the sound. So if you’re ever swapping capacitors, get either a ceramic or polyester cap for less than a buck and use that. I prefer to use poly caps.

The higher the capacitor’s value the more it attenuates high frequencies. Usual cap values for bass going in order from darkest to brightest sound are: 0.1, .047, and .033 with .047 pretty much being the standard. But you can use any value within reason if you want to experiment.

As far as schematics and bass wiring goes, there’s several physical ways to wire a PBass that are all electrically equivalent. Which you choose has zero impact on the sound. They’ll all sound the same.

And since many people make the mistake of using the terms “schematic” and “wiring diagram” interchangeably, it’s time for some definitions:

A schematic shows the plan and function for an electrical circuit, but is not concerned with the physical layout of the wires.

Wiring diagrams show how the wires are connected and where they should located in the actual device, as well as the physical connections between all the components.

Most people actually want a wiring diagram or layout, not a schematic.

This is the easiest layout IMO and the most common style. I’m guessing Nash follows this layout too.

And that’s about all there is to it. Or at least enough to get started.

If you want to really get into what actually is going on with guitar pickups and tonestacks from a physics and electronics perspective, check out this article by Helmuth Lemme. It’s an easy read that clears up a lot of the misconceptions surrounding this subject.

 

[tb-player]

You’re welcome.

About all you need to know about pots when it comes to a PB is to pick value between 250K and 500K. However, 250K and 500K are the most common. The 250K pot will sound darker abd mellower. The 500K will give you a brighter sounding bass.

Pot come in two tapers - audio and linear. Both get used, but I’d strongly suggest sticking with the audio taper for starters unless you have a reason to do otherwise.

Capacitors are made from a variety of materials. Ceramic and polyester veing the two most readily available. Some people insist some types of exotic (and expensive!) capacitors such as “paper-in-oil” or “bumblebee” varieties - sound different and more musical than others. And a whole industry has sprung up to cater to that belief which I consider pure snake oil salesmanship. I’ve wired a large number of guitars and basses over the last 40+ years. And my experience has been that the material a cap is made from makes absolutely no difference in the sound. So if you’re ever swapping capacitors, get either a ceramic or polyester cap for less than a buck and use that. I prefer to use poly caps.

The higher the capacitor’s value the more it attenuates high frequencies. Usual cap values for bass going in order from darkest to brightest sound are: 0.1, .047, and .033 with .047 pretty much being the standard. But you can use any value within reason if you want to experiment.

As far as schematics and bass wiring goes, there’s several physical ways to wire a PBass that are all electrically equivalent. Which you choose has zero impact on the sound. They’ll all sound the same.

And since many people make the mistake of using the terms “schematic” and “wiring diagram” interchangeably, it’s time for some definitions:



Most people actually want a wiring diagram or layout, not a schematic.

This is the easiest layout IMO and the most common style. I’m guessing Nash follows this layout too.

View attachment 5068849

And that’s about all there is to it. Or at least enough to get started.

If you want to really get into what actually is going on with guitar pickups and tonestacks from a physics and electronics perspective, check out this article by Helmuth Lemme. It’s an easy read that clears up a lot of the misconceptions surrounding this subject.

Awesome. Thanks. That diagram seems to be close to what my setup looks like so it’s just a couple of solders. If it’s still not right, I have a luthier nearby who can help out if I get over my head.

 

[Bass4ThePublic]

If it's too harsh wide open you could probably tame it with some Labella flats

 

[nonohmic]

SCPB!

Single coil or hum canceling?

 

[andare]

Report back if the new pickups sound darker. It might be the fatter neck of the Nash instead that made it sound darker. Also your bass is not shielded but the aluminum pickguard probably does a god job already. Any hum that goes away when you touch the string/bridge/jack/pots?

 

[Grinderman]

I have a Fender Custom Shop Empire ‘58 Precision. It’s beautiful and plays really well. I love the look, the weight and the neck. Really beautiful bass. However, I’ve struggled with the tone. The pickup is custom designed for Empire Music, the shop where it was purchased. It sounds decent, but it has a slight harshness when it’s wide open. I can sort of dial it out with the tone knob, but it’s not exactly the p-bass tone I have in my head.

My favorite sounding precision bass I’ve ever owned is a Nash PB57. Those basses come with a Lollar pickup and they sound absolutely fantastic. And even though I’ve tried and tried, I just don’t get on with the baseball bat shaped neck. I’ve owned a few and always end up selling them for a P with the wide-flat neck. But then I miss the Nash tone and start shopping again… it’s a vicious cycle.

So I’m thinking, why not just buy a Lollar pickup and put it in my FCS. It costs 160-bucks and only takes a couple of solders. My FCS has similar woods. It could be a relatively cheap and easy fix, right?

Or is there another component I’m missing or not considering?

Those FCS Empire '58 Ps are very nice basses. I've pretty much done this dance already with P bass pickups, including my Nash PB-63 with Lollar--BTW, I agree with you about Nash's .88" @1st fret front-to-back, C profile. My other P with a 1-3/4" wide, soft V profile neck is better for me even though it's wider and it's also .88" @st fret.

Anyway, I've used the mentioned Lollar, Klein Epic '58 P, Klein Epic '59 P, FCS '62 P, and SD Antiquity (with flush pole pieces). I also have experience with Fralin albeit in a Jazz bass.

Between those P bass pickups, the differences are subtle and I believe there's an element of tonal personality or character baked into every individual P's summation of parts. Another thing I've found, with all the randomness involved particularly to the basses and pickups I've tried, is the Lollar in my Nash sounds better with rounds than with flats... but who knows. We're in a lottery with very rapidly diminishing returns land at this point.

For every bass of mine, Jazz or P; rounds or flats, I always cut back at the tone knob. Sometimes I dial back the volume a smidge too because I believe the tone sounds a little different and better--is the difference real or meaningful? Maybe, maybe not. I prefer 1.00uF tone caps on P basses and needing to turn down tone knobs was never the cause for me to try other pickups. I was more fixated on the mids, low mids, lows, and response.

I presume it's confirmed your '58 came with a 1.00uF tone cap, .050 or .047uF?

 

[tb-player]

Report back if the new pickups sound darker. It might be the fatter neck of the Nash instead that made it sound darker. Also your bass is not shielded but the aluminum pickguard probably does a god job already. Any hum that goes away when you touch the string/bridge/jack/pots?

Nope. Silent.

 

[Killing Floor]

Lollar makes great P pickups. Between Lollar and Fralin you can’t go wrong.

 

[Grinderman]

You’re welcome.

About all you need to know about pots when it comes to a PB is to pick value between 250K and 500K. However, 250K and 500K are the most common. The 250K pot will sound darker abd mellower. The 500K will give you a brighter sounding bass.

Pot come in two tapers - audio and linear. Both get used, but I’d strongly suggest sticking with the audio taper for starters unless you have a reason to do otherwise.

Capacitors are made from a variety of materials. Ceramic and polyester veing the two most readily available. Some people insist some types of exotic (and expensive!) capacitors such as “paper-in-oil” or “bumblebee” varieties - sound different and more musical than others. And a whole industry has sprung up to cater to that belief which I consider pure snake oil salesmanship. I’ve wired a large number of guitars and basses over the last 40+ years. And my experience has been that the material a cap is made from makes absolutely no difference in the sound. So if you’re ever swapping capacitors, get either a ceramic or polyester cap for less than a buck and use that. I prefer to use poly caps.

The higher the capacitor’s value the more it attenuates high frequencies. Usual cap values for bass going in order from darkest to brightest sound are: 0.1, .047, and .033 with .047 pretty much being the standard. But you can use any value within reason if you want to experiment.

As far as schematics and bass wiring goes, there’s several physical ways to wire a PBass that are all electrically equivalent. Which you choose has zero impact on the sound. They’ll all sound the same.

And since many people make the mistake of using the terms “schematic” and “wiring diagram” interchangeably, it’s time for some definitions:



Most people actually want a wiring diagram or layout, not a schematic.

This is the easiest layout IMO and the most common style. I’m guessing Nash follows this layout too.

View attachment 5068849


And that’s about all there is to it. Or at least enough to get started.

If you want to really get into what actually is going on with guitar pickups and tonestacks from a physics and electronics perspective, check out this article by Helmuth Lemme. It’s an easy read that clears up a lot of the misconceptions surrounding this subject.

'58's, standard come with 250K pots and 1.00uF caps. Point being, the OP's FCS '58 should already have the darkest, most mellow combination of pots and caps. They could spend $26 to $20 on phone book paper, oil and wax caps from Fender or Luxe Radio or wherever. Been there, done that... Meh... Any difference between cap content material and construction is debatable to put it mildly.

 

[Grinderman]

This is the original and simplest scheme. IMO, less is more so it's how I stick to doing mine.

 

[Rabidhamster]

I have a Fender Custom Shop Empire ‘58 Precision. It’s beautiful and plays really well. I love the look, the weight and the neck. Really beautiful bass. However, I’ve struggled with the tone. The pickup is custom designed for Empire Music, the shop where it was purchased. It sounds decent, but it has a slight harshness when it’s wide open. I can sort of dial it out with the tone knob, but it’s not exactly the p-bass tone I have in my head.

My favorite sounding precision bass I’ve ever owned is a Nash PB57. Those basses come with a Lollar pickup and they sound absolutely fantastic. And even though I’ve tried and tried, I just don’t get on with the baseball bat shaped neck. I’ve owned a few and always end up selling them for a P with the wide-flat neck. But then I miss the Nash tone and start shopping again… it’s a vicious cycle.

So I’m thinking, why not just buy a Lollar pickup and put it in my FCS. It costs 160-bucks and only takes a couple of solders. My FCS has similar woods. It could be a relatively cheap and easy fix, right?

Or is there another component I’m missing or not considering?

Lollars sound great, if you like the bass playability and think it sounds just as good unplugged then I think it’ll be perfect

 

[kbakerde]

What pickup is in that ‘58? Haven’t used Lollar personally but my friends all swear by them.

I had a great 1960 P bass wirh the HW ‘62 FCS P Pickup. If you can get your hands on it it’s worth every penny. Hands down the best P pickup I’ve had. I paid extra to have that guy in my custom P/J in queue at Fender.

 

[tb-player]

This is the original and simplest scheme. IMO, less is more so it's how I stick to doing mine.

Isn’t that pretty much the same as mine? If so, I think swapping for Lollars may give me the tone I’m looking for. If not, I can always keep looking. After all, it’s cheaper than swapping basses.

 

[Grinderman]

Isn’t that pretty much the same as mine? If so, I think swapping for Lollars may give me the tone I’m looking for. If not, I can always keep looking. After all, it’s cheaper than swapping basses.

Yes. The new ones just get wired a ground between pots and then back to the jack instead of simply relying on contact between pots, jack, and the '50s aluminum guard or the Kluson shield.

I'd definitely safe-keep the original Empire spec pickup... not that it's my business.

 

[tb-player]

What pickup is in that ‘58? Haven’t used Lollar personally but my friends all swear by them.

I had a great 1960 P bass wirh the HW ‘62 FCS P Pickup. If you can get your hands on it it’s worth every penny. Hands down the best P pickup I’ve had. I paid extra to have that guy in my custom P/J in queue at Fender.

It's a special pickup design collaboration by Vincent Van Trigt at the Fender Custom Shop and the bass guy at Empire Music in Pittsburgh. It's not a bad pickup at all. I do like it. I just really miss the sound of the 3 Nash PB57s I've had. They were all consistent one to the next. Adding the Lollar very well might make this bass absolutely ideal for me, because everything else about it is pretty much perfect.

 

[Grinderman]

What pickup is in that ‘58? Haven’t used Lollar personally but my friends all swear by them.

I had a great 1960 P bass wirh the HW ‘62 FCS P Pickup. If you can get your hands on it it’s worth every penny. Hands down the best P pickup I’ve had. I paid extra to have that guy in my custom P/J in queue at Fender.

The special Empire FCS pickup in that line of '58 P's is said to be between the FCS's HW '58 P and the '62P. For whatever reason they aren't calling it a FCS HW '59 P pickup. Probably because some marketing logic.