Double Bass Problem with chord in "Autumn Leaves"

[Slipper]

Hi everyone, I am following the walking bass lessons from a youtube channel that provide music sheet as supplementary material.



The music sheet is here:
Simple Walking Bass Line For Jazz Beginners

The chords used in the first line are the following:
Cm7 (C, D#, G, A#)
F7 (F, A, C, D#)
Bb maj (A#, C#, F, G#)
Eb maj7 (D#, F#, A#, C#)

However, the notes written on the line do not match the chords.
Meaning that they contain notes that are not in the chords.
Cm7: C, D, D#, G
F7: F, G, A, C
Bb maj: B, A, G, F
Eb maj7: D#, D, C, A#

Could anyone explain these discrepancies?
Thanks!

 

[TroyK]

Okay, I'm not at a bass right now, but let's start with enharmonic spellings. They make my brain hurt and can't be helping with yours.

C is the relative minor of Eb. An Eb Major scale is Eb F G Ab Bb C D E

Therefore, when you pick a C- chord or arpeggio apart, the notes are the same. I know that G# and Ab are the same pitch, but you can't think of it that way if you want to keep these things clean in your logic.

This Autumn Leaves chart is in the key of B flat. B and E are flats in the staff and will always be flats, unless an accidental makes them temporarily natural

The line he notated is:

C D Eb G (C-)
F G A C (F7)
Bb G A F (Bb Maj)
Eb D C Ab (Eb Maj)

All directly in the key and from the scale associated with the chord.

I get that you're probably looking at the TAB, but understanding how these chords are build and how they relate to one another in the key center makes it possible to improvize walking bass lines through jazz changes.

 

[JRA]

they're called passing tones. notice how they're used to "pass" from one solid chord tone to another.

also, you're identifying some of the chord tones with sharps (#) even though the tune is clearly arranged in Bb, i.e., there is no D# in that key, rather it's Eb...they sound the same, but aren't...what you call them is dependent on the key in which you're playing.

i didn't watch the video, but i'd bet that he attends to these issues somewhere in the vid.

looks like you're just starting to try and understand stuff. edit: there's a lot to digest and learn. a basic understanding of key signatures is a great way to start!

good luck!

 

[MuseChaser]

To expound a bit on the correct things the previous posters have already said...

In jazz (and elsewhere, but I'll stick with jazz right now), chords are formed typically by stacking notes in thirds, starting with the root, then "voicing" those notes in different orders to make them sound more open and just better in general. However, let's start with "root" "closed" voicings based upon the notes of a major scale

Root, third, fifth, seventh, ninth, eleventh, and thirteenth. In the key of C, those notes would be...

C, E, G, B, D, F, A

Now let's just stick with chords as far as the seventh..

C, E, G, B.

That is called a "Major Seventh Chord," or in this case, specifically, a "C Major Seven"

In jazz, unless you see or hear the words "major seventh," it implies the "dominant" or flatted seventh, so a "C7" chord would be ...

C, E, G, Bb.

The word "minor" refers to the third, which is then flatted. A "C minor seven" or "Cm7" chord would be...

C, Eb, G, Bb.

Any chord that includes a 9th, 11th, or 13th in its description or spelling implies the inclusion of the flat or dominant seventh. For instance, a C9 would be

C, E, G, Bb, D.

That's the basics behind chord construction... and why, OP, your description of a Cm7 chord as C, D#, G, A# drove us nuts immediately!

Now, as to constructing jazz bass lines - again, as others have said, a "line" is a mix of chord tones and passing (non-chord) tones. TYPICALLY, but not always and not mandatory, chord tones will fall on beats one and three in 4/4 time, and passing tones will be selected and played on beats 2 and 4 to lead to the chord tones on 1 and 3. For instance, let's look at the first couple bars of "Autumn Leaves" in the key you posted it in..

Cm7/// | F7/// | Bbmaj7 /// | Ebmaj7///|

A possible bass line could be ...

C, D, Eb, G | F, G, A, C | Bb, A, G, F | Eb, G, Bb, Ab |

Explanations... in the first two bars, the root of the chord is on beat one and the third of the chord is on beat 3. In each of those two measures, the second note is the second scale degree approaching the third of the chord from a whole step below, which is good leading. The fourth note is the fifth scale degree, approaching the root of the next chord from a whole step above, which works. The last note of the first measure could be changed to E natural - a note that is not in the chord, or even in the right key, but it leads to the F in the next measure so strongly by approaching from a 1/2 step below that it works fine. I used the same technique in the last measure, using Ab (a case could be made for calling it a G#) to lead up to the root of A in the next chord (an Am7b5, or "A half diminished".. they mean the same thing).

REALLY basically - create your chords from the root up by stacking thirds and adjusting the notes as required by the chord quality, then walk to chord tones on 1 and 3 by using appropriate passing tones for strong leading on beats 2 and 4.

It's just that easy!

 

[brianrost]

the notes written on the line do not match the chords.
Meaning that they contain notes that are not in the chords.

All four are beginner walking bass cliches. They start on the root and end on the 5.

Cm7: C, D, D#, G 1, 2, 3, 5 (the 3 in this case is minor 3rd)

F7: F, G, A, C 1, 2, 3, 5 again

Bb maj: Bb, A, G, F Descending from root to fifth. 1, 7, 6, 5

Eb maj7: D#, D, C, A# 1, 7, 6, 5 again

EDITED: I double checked the chart in the video, it’s a Bb not a B as Slipper wrote in the OP. My apologies.

 

[TroyK]

I do like that guy's P Bass. I should have held on to mine.

 

[TroyK]

All four are beginner walking bass cliches. They start on the root (except the Bb) and end on the 5...

It doesn't. It starts on Bb.

 

[MuseChaser]

All four are beginner walking bass cliches. They start on the root (except the Bb) and end on the 5.

The ol' 1,2,3,5 "cliche" is really a great place to start, and it's a cliche for a reason. It trains the ear to hear the root on 1, and the third, which determines whether a chord is major/dominant or minor/diminished, on beat three.. and typically, if the chord is leading to another chord, the 5 on the fourth beat is usually an acceptable leading tone. Absolutely nothing wrong with using it, and I would recommend to someone just getting started they master the ability to construct bass lines using it over Maj7, 7, m7, m7b5, and full diminished chords before worrying about getting fancier.

Once one can easily construct basic chords and one's ear starts to take over, exploring all the infinite ways of leading from one chord to the next through well-constructed bass lines can really begin.

Constructing a bass line, or soloing, really isn't playing over whatever chord you're on, but rather navigating decisively towards the chord you are approaching. I draw the parallel to slalom skiing with my students; as you go through one gate, you have your eyes on the next gate or two and are already planning your path there, not just sitting there fat and happy enjoying the gate you just went through.

 

[brianrost]

It doesn't. It starts on Bb.

Slipper’s post had a typo. I edited my reply above.

 

[Slipper]

Thanks a lot for all your answers and to have corrected my typos.
It will take time to unpack, so I might come back a bit later on some of them.
I just would like to thank @brianrost, his message is very didactic.

However, something seems contradictory in your explanations.

If I take as example Cm7, @MuseChaser was mentioning that the sequence is:
C Eb G Bb or 1 m3 5 b7

However, @brianrost and @MuseChaser mention below that in the case of this Walking Bass 'Autumn leaves' the sequence is the "cliche":
1 2 3 5 (or 1 2 m3 5 if I have well understood)

Why is the sequence of the chord Cm7 [1 m3 5 b7] in one case, and [1 2 m3 5] in the other?

 

[TroyK]

Thanks a lot for all your answers and to have corrected my typos.
It will take time to unpack, so I might come back a bit later on some of them.
I just would like to thank @brianrost, his message is very didactic.

However, something seems contradictory in your explanations.

If I take as example Cm7, @MuseChaser was mentioning that the sequence is:
C Eb G Bb or 1 m3 5 b7

However, @brianrost and @MuseChaser mention below that in the case of this Walking Bass 'Autumn leaves' the sequence is the "cliche":
1 2 3 5 (or 1 2 m3 5 if I have well understood)

Why is the sequence of the chord Cm7 [1 m3 5 b7] in one case, and [1 2 m3 5] in the other?

If I understand your question correctly, it's because there is not a "bass line" to learn for Autumn Leaves, the way that there is on "I Want You Back" or "Basket Case". Lines are improvised harmonically supporting the changes to the song.

The guy in the video you're watching is very good, I like his lessons, though I haven't watched this one. Jazz requires using the other side of your brain, though. Once you cut over, it's actually easier, because you're not on the hook to faithfully reproduce someone else's recorded bassline.

 

[Slipper]

If I understand your question correctly, it's because there is not a "bass line" to learn for Autumn Leaves, the way that there is on "I Want You Back" or "Basket Case". Lines are improvised harmonically supporting the changes to the song.

The guy in the video you're watching is very good, I like his lessons, though I haven't watched this one. Jazz requires using the other side of your brain, though. Once you cut over, it's actually easier, because you're not on the hook to faithfully reproduce someone else's recorded bassline.

Thank you for the answer TroyK.

If I have well understood, the chord Cm7 is made from notes from the C minor scale, but it is not always the same sequence.

Once again, if I understand well, many structures do exist, but 1 m3 5 7 and 1 2 m3 5 are classical chords structures. Am I right?

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Thank you for the answer TroyK.

If I have well understood, the chord Cm7 is made from notes from the C minor scale, but it is not always the same sequence.

Interesting you mention Jazz, a little above @MuseChaser was quoting that Jazz typical structure is Root, third, fifth, seventh.
It seems illogical that the classical "cliche" structure of a chord does not follow this structure, but rather 1 2 m3 5.

The "1 2 m3 5" you're talking about here is not the chord. It's one possible bass line to play over the Cm7 chord. The chord remains the same.

 

[Slipper]

Ah, thank you very much @ProbablyTooLoud.
So any bass line is based on a scale defined by the root note, and on a chord from this scale, defined by the 3rd and the 5th.
But any other chromatic notes can be added to the bass line.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Ah, thank you very much @ProbablyTooLoud.
So any bass line is based on a scale defined by the root note, and on a chord from this scale, defined by the 3rd and the 5th.
But any other chromatic notes can be added to the bass line.

If they sound cool and your bandmates don't punch you, yes.
Also, although this is a little early, you will soon find value in thinking "key" rather than "chord."
It's okay to think, hear, and play a chord at a time as a developing player, but eventually, you'll be able to think, hear, and play the song as a whole, rather than one measure or phrase at a time.

 

[TroyK]

Ah, thank you very much @ProbablyTooLoud.
So any bass line is based on a scale defined by the root note, and on a chord from this scale, defined by the 3rd and the 5th.
But any other chromatic notes can be added to the bass line.

That's pretty close. Lean into the roots, 3rds, 5ths, and 7ths and then let yourself get away from the strictness of that.

 

[Slipper]

Well, in fairness I would prefer a strict rule.
I have no idea how to make a tune, and I have been playing bass since 2014.
That's why I am enthusiastic about the key structure @ProbablyTooLoud was talking about. It might be the way to understand how to write bass lines.
Thanks again to everyone for the advices!

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Well, in fairness I would prefer a strict rule.
I have no idea how to make a tune, and I have been playing bass since 2014.
That's why I am enthusiastic about the key structure @ProbablyTooLoud was talking about. It might be the way to understand how to write bass lines.
Thanks again to everyone for the advices!

Here are two excellent references written by TB member Chris Fitzgerald (on the DB side) that I think will help a lot. Chris has others that are more "key" than "chord," but these steps I think are important.

 

[MuseChaser]

...

Why is the sequence of the chord Cm7 [1 m3 5 b7] in one case, and [1 2 m3 5] in the other?

The chord, Cm7, is made of the notes C, Eb, G, and Bb, which are the root, 3rd, 5th,and 7th notes of the chord. The wore "Chord" implies a harmonic sound made up of simultaneously sounded notes. If you play them individually, it's an "arpeggio."

The C, D, Eb, G, suggested 1,2,3,5 pattern is a "bass line," meant to be played one note at a time in quarter notes, underneath the chord.

 

[Wasnex]

Hi everyone, I am following the walking bass lessons from a youtube channel that provide music sheet as supplementary material.



The music sheet is here:
Simple Walking Bass Line For Jazz Beginners

The chords used in the first line are the following:
Cm7 (C, D#, G, A#)
F7 (F, A, C, D#)
Bb maj (A#, C#, F, G#)
Eb maj7 (D#, F#, A#, C#)

However, the notes written on the line do not match the chords.
Meaning that they contain notes that are not in the chords.
Cm7: C, D, D#, G
F7: F, G, A, C
Bb maj: B, A, G, F
Eb maj7: D#, D, C, A#

Could anyone explain these discrepancies?
Thanks!

The first thing you need to do is learn the actual spellings of these chord. If you don't have enough of a foundation in theory to do this, then I don't see how you can expect to understand which notes fits and which notes do not. Even if you can figure out which notes fit, you won't be able to communicate effectively with anyone else.

Cm7 = C,Eb,G,Bb
F7 = F,A,C,Eb
BbMaj7 = Bb,D,F,A
EbMaj7 = Eb,G,Bb,D

The key signature has Bb and Eb. This puts the song in either Bb Major or G Minor. Cm7, F7, BbMaj7, EbMaj7 are ii, V, I, IV in the key of Bb Major. So the song clearly starts in Bb Major. Bb Major includes the following notes: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A. These notes and chords all belong in the key of Bb Major...Therefore they are diatonic to Bb Major.

All of the notes in the bass line for these bars are diatonic...they belong to the key of Bb Major. They were clearly chosen because they belong in the key center.

Each bar uses three chord tones and one diatonic non-chord tone. This type of non-chord tone is called a passing tone. Basically the notes use step wise motion with no change of direction to travel from the chord tone, to the passing tone, to the next chord tone.

In the first bar, the D on beat 2 is a passing tone. In the second bar, the G on beat 2 is a passing tone. In the third bar, the G on beat 3 is a passing tone. In the fourth bar, C on beat 3 is a passing tone.

When you are learning to walk, you generally put the root of the chord on beat 1. You generally want a consonant sound on beats 1 and 3...I.E. chord tones like 1,3, or 5. This is called harmonic emphasis because you are outlining the chords on beats 1 and 3.

Jazz puts a rhythmic emphasis on beats 2 and 4, so if you want to use non-chord tones, this is the first place you would consider putting them. Beats 2 and 4 are also good places to put the 7th. Although the 7th is a chord tone, it's not a particularly consonant interval.
Beat 4 is also where you might put a non-diatonic tone such as a chromatic approach.

A chromatic approach approaches a targeted chord tone either a 1/2 step below or above. So if the target is the F on beat 1 of the 2nd bar, E natural and a Gb are both considered chromatic approaches.