Double Bass Problem with chord in "Autumn Leaves"

[MuseChaser]

The first thing you need to do is learn the actual spellings of these chord. If you don't have enough of a foundation in theory to do this, then I don't see how you can expect to understand which notes fits and which notes do not. Even if you can figure out which notes fit, you won't be able to communicate effectively with anyone else.

Cm7 = C,Eb,G,Bb
F7 = F,A,C,Eb
BbMaj7 = Bb,D,F,A
EbMaj7 = Eb,G,Bb,D

The key signature has Bb and Eb. This puts the song in either Bb Major or G Minor. Cm7, F7, BbMaj7, EbMaj7 are ii, V, I, IV in the key of Bb Major. So the song clearly starts in Bb Major. Bb Major includes the following notes: Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A. These notes and chords all belong in the key of Bb Major...Therefore they are diatonic to Bb Major.

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All of the notes in the bass line for these bars are diatonic...they belong to the key of Bb Major. They were clearly chosen because they belong in the key center.

Each bar uses three chord tones and one diatonic non-chord tone. This type of non-chord tone is called a passing tone. Basically the notes use step wise motion with no change of direction to travel from the chord tone, to the passing tone, to the next chord tone.

In the first bar, the D on beat 2 is a passing tone. In the second bar, the G on beat 2 is a passing tone. In the third bar, the G on beat 3 is a passing tone. In the fourth bar, C on beat 3 is a passing tone.

When you are learning to walk, you generally put the root of the chord on beat 1. You generally want a consonant sound on beats 1 and 3...I.E. chord tones like 1,3, or 5. This is called harmonic emphasis because you are outlining the chords on beats 1 and 3.

Jazz puts a rhythmic emphasis on beats 2 and 4, so if you want to use non-chord tones, this is the first place you would consider putting them. Beats 2 and 4 are also good places to put the 7th. Although the 7th is a chord tone, it's not a particularly consonant interval.
Beat 4 is also where you might put a non-diatonic tone such as a chromatic approach.
View attachment 5213877

A chromatic approach approaches a targeted chord tone either a 1/2 step below or above. So if the target is the F on beat 1 of the 2nd bar, E natural and a Gb are both considered chromatic approaches.

What he....and I...said. I applaud the OP for asking the question and being interested in jazz. There are tons of great reference materials and resources out there. Jerry Coker's "Improvising Jazz" was very helpful to me in my early teens, and I recommend it to anyone interested in exploring and entering the world of jazz theory.

 

[TroyK]

Yeah, don't get discouraged @Slipper. It's really fun to play this way. It's not rocket surgery, it just requires approaching music from a different direction.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank you for the answer TroyK.

If I have well understood, the chord Cm7 is made from notes from the C minor scale, but it is not always the same sequence.

Once again, if I understand well, many structures do exist, but 1 m3 5 7 and 1 2 m3 5 are classical chords structures. Am I right?

In this example, the chord Cm7 is made from the notes of the Bb Major scale (Bb Major has two flats Bb and Eb). If you started on C and played a diatonic scale you would play the Dorian mode. C, D, Eb, F, G, A, Bb, C.

C minor has three flats Bb, Eb, Ab. So the C natural minor scale (Aeolian mode) is C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb, C . To make things a bit more confusing. In jazz it's fairly common to play Dorian mode over minor 7 chords...but we are getting way ahead of ourself, so just store that little tidbit away.

When you are improvising a walking line, you don't simply play the chord tones 1,3,5,7 in order. You consider the chord tones, the key center, the basic rules or formula for how to make a walking line, and which rules you want to break. I am sure there is some stuff I left out as well.

You might choose to play 1,3,5,7 but it's going to get stale very quickly if you play that for every bar. So you use a set of rules.

Generally you play root on 1 and a consonant chord tone on 3. On beats 2 and 4 you can choose between chord tones or diatonic non-chord tones. Or you can break the rules and play some sort of non-diatonic tone. As you learn and gain experience, you will learn a range of formulas for how to mix in various type of non-diatonic tones. With enough perspective, you don't even have to start every bar on the root of the chord.

At this stage you are probably struggling just to keep the chord tones and key center in your head. You really need to study the chord spellings so at least 1,3,5,7 are very clear to you. It should be automatic. You should also learn your keys and practice scales and modes. The key signatures and scales also need to be automatic.

Later as you gain experience you see a chord symbol and you don't necessarily think of the chord tones. The chord symbol becomes sort of an archetype that is tied to a library of knowledge that you hold in subconscious. So later when you see Cmin7 you gain automatic access to a wide choice of different note combinations that you can choose from in real time.

Right now you are building the knowledge base in your subconscious library. So you need to experiment with a bunch of patterns you can play over Cmin7. Another facet of this is the type of patterns that stays on Cmin7 vary somewhat from patterns the lead to F7. Also keep in mind that the patterns you play over Cmin7 can vary depending up the key center.

 

[Wasnex]

@Slipper

Hopefully I get all of this right Fact checking is welcome.

Diatonic chords come from a process called harmonization.

The song from your OP starts in the key of Bb Major, with Bb and Eb in the key signature.

So the notes of the key are Bb, C, D, Eb, F, G, A

The diatonic 7th chords for the key are built in thirds over the notes of the scale. The stacked chord tones are all diatonic. FYI, When the chords are stacked in thirds, it is called tertian harmony.

Key of Bb Major:

This is the I chord: Bb,D,F,A = BbMaj7
This is the ii chord: C,Eb,G,Bb = Cmin7
This is the iii chord: D,F,A,C = Dmin7
This is the IV chord: Eb,G,Bb,D = EbMaj7
This is the V chord: F,A,C,Eb = F7
This is the vi chord: G,Bb,D,F = Gmin7
This is the viiø chord: A,C,Eb,G = Amin7b5​

Some call Amin7b5 "A half diminished" and use this symbol:

Technically the 7 is not a required part of the symbol.

All major keys harmonize to the same chord shapes.

Here is the harmonization of the Minor scales.

Symbol Key:

Small case = minor triad unless modified with ø (half diminished symbol) or ° (diminished symbol).
Large case = Major triad unless modified with the Augmented symbol +
+5 = Augmented 5th
-7 = minor 7th
Δ7 = Major 7th
7 with no modification is dominant shape: I.E. major triad with minor 7th.
ø or ø7 = diminished 5th and minor 7th
°7 = diminished 5th and diminished 7th
# before a chord indicates the root is raised a 1/2 step.​

Explanation for #. In harmonic minor the 7th is raise 1/2 step. In jazz melodic minor both the 6th and 7th are raise 1/2 step. In minor, both the minor and major 6th and 7th are considered diatonic. ​

Ideally you should have these harmonizations memorized as well...I will concede that unfortunately I have never fully internalized the minor harmonizations.

 

[Slipper]

As before, thanks for all the answers, it will take some time to unpack all of them so I will come back later to some of them.
I am grateful to get so much help.

Meanwhile, as was quoting @MuseChaser, thanks so much for your post @Wasnex. It is the most enlightening guide on key signature I have ever read. I will frame it on a wall.

If I have well understood, there are two clues to assess the tune key:
1. It is one of the flat symbols close to the bass key signature (Bb and Eb).
2. The tones are majoritarily diatonic and the chords are within the same key. Here:
Bb Major (Bb C D Eb F G A)
G minor (G A Bb C D Eb F)

The intersection of these two info give us the key: Bb Major.

PS:
You mentioned that on first and second bar of the example, the passing tone is beat 2, and on third and fourth bar, the passing tone is beat 3. Is it a rule to distribute harmonic emphasis differently during the ascending phase (beat 2 here) and descending phase (beat 3 here) of the walking bass line?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

As you see from @Wasnex answer, the chord symbol alone does not give you the notes in between the chord notes, but you have to look at the chord progression to find the function or chord root note inside the scale.

For this look out for ii-V7-I or longer fifth connected chord chains.

Minor is a lot more difficult than major due to the raised seventh and sixth in some places but not always.
A good foundation in harmony will help you with this.

Also your ear can be trained to find (prehear) if the next note is a half step or a whole step away. So you can decide while playing if the theory is not completely clear.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Remember it is a bass line, not note hopping. So a nice bass line has a direction (at least for some time) and goes mainly stepwise in small intervals. So you might need to decide to use a non-four-note-chord note on the 3 (which typically gets a chord note) instead of the chord note.

There is a lot more in the construction of bass lines that cannot explained shortly, but with what you got here you have good starting point.

 

[Slipper]

Thanks for your answer @DoubleMIDI.

I do not understand this sentence:
"So you might need to decide to use a non-four-note-chord note on the 3 (which typically gets a chord note) instead of the chord note."

Do you mean we can use a passing tone on beat 3 in any bar of the tune?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I meant on beat 3 as you found out yourself.

I mean you need to decide if you want to use a passing note on beat 3 to avoid interruption of the linear direction of notes. In general it is better to avoid that, specially if it is an older style or the number of notes going in that direction is rather small.
Also other (less experienced) players might get mixed up by that passing note.
If you play a passing note on beat 3, you better have the next note in that direction a chord note. That way it resolves to a chord note in a logical way (keeping the direction and stepwise diatonic movement). If you need to jump for the next chord tone it is no longer a passing note.

You can do a lot of things that most would call forbidden or bad, but you need to know what and why and purists that are not familiar with that kind of playing might not be able to adjust their playing to that and therefor do not appreciate it.
More for the experts and often there is a simpler less demanding way to play.

So first keep to the basics.
There is a lot more you might find strange like tritone substitutions, ii-V7-I where the I is never played but substituted by a different ii-V7 etc.

There are more scales than major and the different minors and their modes, but you don’t need to know about that currently (only in a very few cases). If you stay with older standards, major and some minor should work.

Sometimes you have to try which basic minor scale sounds best which translates to which notes not in the chord sound best and/or are used by the other players.

If you have very inexperienced players (or wrong chord extensions), you might even fight for the right chord note with them …

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Regarding jumps, you need to use them, but not too many, the larger the fewer (except the octave) but not larger ones one after the other, except you want to show a complete different style for a defined amount of time (chorus, part).

Chord arpeggios with a mixed sequence of chord notes are OK, but better not as a general style.

All this stuff can be used to make the bass line through the piece more interesting because of a clear variation of accompaniment, but it should always fit to what the other players do. If you are not sure, stay to mostly linear movement and no one would complain.

Getting a good book about jazz harmony (and also reading and trying to understand) would be a good idea.
But for now, stay with the basics you have learned here.

 

[Wasnex]

The rules are suggestions. You can break any of them at any time. However to do it will requires talent, knowledge, perspective, and taste.

I think of walking bass as having three basic forms:
1. Arpeggiated-this is generally the first form you learn because you are focused on the chord tones.
2. Linear-this is pretty much step-wise motion up or down. You mix chord tones and none chord tones.
3. Hybrid-this mixes 1. and 2. You may play some linear notes and then add a jump, or vice versa.

Every time I have seen the question asked, the majority state a preference for linear walking bass lines. I will say that IMHO some arrangements favor linear lines and other arrangement favor arpeggiated lines. I often like to mix it up, and all three forms. But sometimes I will strongly favor 1. or 2. if I feel that is most appropriate for the arrangement.

Example:
The bass line for this recording is mostly arpeggiated:


You can play linear lines over this arrangement, but IMHO it's not really authentic to the style and feel of the recording...which I consider iconic.

 

[brianrost]

Is it a rule to distribute harmonic emphasis differently during the ascending phase (beat 2 here) and descending phase (beat 3 here) of the walking bass line?

If you look at the 4 bars on the staff you can see that the line ascends for two bars and then descends for two bars. This is just providing a shape to the line. It’s up to the player to decide whether to ascend or descend and when to change direction. Obviously, if you play the root on beat 1 and want to descend, the next thee notes happen to be the 7, 6 and 5. You could think of this as the mirror image of the ascending 1-2-3-5 phrase.

If you look at the notation in Wasnex’s post, you’ll notice that in each case there is a whole step between the last note played from the previous chord and the root of the next chord. It just so happens that when the harmony is moving by fourths (F is the fourth note in the C scale, Bb is the fourth note in the Bb scale, etc.) this is convenient. Though not providing as strong a forward motion as a chromatic approach (playing the b6 or b5 instead of the 5 as the fourth note) it works. More than a whole step becomes a jump and breaks up the smoothness of the line.

As an exercise, try starting on the higher C and descending for two bars, then start ascending on the Bb chord, again using 1-2-3-5 of the chord when ascending and 1-7-6-5 of the chord when descending. Does this make the line feel different to you?

Of course, you can also ascend for the first three chords and descend for the forth, or ascend for the first chord and descend for the next three, ascend for all four, descend for all four, etc. You will have to start in different octaves, of course to do these. Again, how does it feel to you?

In jazz, the shape of the walking line can be just as important as the notes chosen.

 

[TroyK]

@Slipper

How about an update? Did this get easier or did you throw up your hands and swear off Autumn Leaves?

 

[Bruce Calin]

1. I admit I skipped over some of the more detailed explanations but has anyone suggested listening to various recordings of Autumn Leaves, of which there are many, and try to figure out what the bass player is playing in relation to the chord progression?
2. I firmly believe in learning as much about jazz harmony and bass line construction through listening as possible, literally learning to "play by ear". You can always go back and see how what you heard relates to some written version but you need to have the hearing skill to be an effective jazz player IMO. Figure out what's going on aurally first. You can study the theory later. If you are too tied to a theoretical concept or something on paper(old school) it will limit your ability to play what you hear, which IMO is the whole point. Others may differ.

 

[turf3]

Well, in fairness I would prefer a strict rule.
I have no idea how to make a tune, and I have been playing bass since 2014.
That's why I am enthusiastic about the key structure @ProbablyTooLoud was talking about. It might be the way to understand how to write bass lines.
Thanks again to everyone for the advices!

There is no strict rule for playing walking bass, except the one that states "use things on sides of head".

 

[turf3]

When you see minor, diminished, and augmented chord symbols, you can have two or three note sets to choose from, depending on how much or little tension is desired. Generally and stereotypically in the standard jazz combo, piano or guitar will take the lead on inner voicings and tensions, and if you're playing with a particularly busy player of a chord instrument who really likes to use a lot of spice, you'll generally do better as a bassist to play more "vanilla". Backing a soloist it depends a great deal on what the soloist's doing - a tenor player who's working out all 500 pages of the "Coltrane and Bergonzi Consolidated Chord Substitutions Workbook" will need a simpler less highly spiced backing and a trombone player who plays very spare simple solos may be happy for you to add some of those inner and tension notes.

So once again you go back to the one weird old trick for playing walking bass, which is to LISTEN. Listen to recordings, and listen to what your bandmates are doing.

 

[Slipper]

@Slipper

How about an update? Did this get easier or did you throw up your hands and swear off Autumn Leaves?

Hello @TroyK , thank you to ask for news!
Unfortunately, I am a very slow learner and my profession leave me little time each day to practice and learn.
For the moment I have memorized the full "Autumn Leaves" piece, and can play it at 100 or 150bpm.
Now that I have identified what a typical walking bass line sounds like, I will make experiments.

1.
What the use of chords and passing tones?
How does it affect the melody?
I plan to write a walking line using chord tones, following the II-V-I progression.
Then to write a similar line (same chords) with passing tones to observe what difference it makes and if I can hear it.

2.
Two patterns of chords have been shown. Is the sequence of the notes relevant or not?
What is chord movement by 4th? Is it useful?
I will try what @brianrost has described above with comparing the ascending chords 1-2-3-5 and descending 1-7-6-5.
Then I will change the composition of ascending/descending chord, and observe if I can hear any difference.
Literature review of chord movement by 4th (circle of 5ths and 4ths?) might be necessary.

Here is the menu for the next months.
This subject is still expanding, and I am quite slow to read and analyse all the answers.
Regardless, thanks to all your advices, I will unpack them in the months to come.

 

[BobDeRosa]

Just for the record, the Autumn Leaves key referred to here is G minor, not Bb major.