Project Vista Sonic (rut row, JIO's at it again!)

[farace]

Very interesting Bob (first off - thanks for the pics!) --- yes, a couple things are very different. What year is your Visa Sonic? The string mute bar base on yours is on the pg, where as mine (would be) on the body below the pg. The ramp on mine was probably done to allow access for fore-aft adjustment of the saddles as compared to the sunken rout on yours that would make that task difficult. (?) Funny thing, in the Burns book it shows a 1963 Vista Sonic (in red/black) that looks like yours (mute bar on pg) and on my post #88, the pic of a VS with the full string-mute bar is also like that, but the VS in the black & white ad is like mine! (mute-bar on body below pg) Flipping through the 2 Burns books I have shows both examples - so this is something for the Burn fb page members to chew on! (I suspect many are British) None of the pics are large/detailed enough to see the ramp and if both details (string-mute bar on body and ramp) were one way, and the bar on the pg/no ramp were another way. I love a good mystery!

And yes, I dig the strange spray-job on the neck - especially with the full-on red and black front & back haloed hs! Nothing basic about that! The bridge thumbscrews with inset mollies is also different than mine - which is two small screw holes. Also noted round-head bolts on the saddles where as mine are flat-heads. I was thinking of stringing it up with the black tape-wound Roto's - what's your opinion of them on that bass?

The best I could figure, based on components and Ampeg's timeline, is that it's probably a '63. Very few were imported, due to import tariffs making the Ampeg/Burns instruments economically unappealing. I think the only time I've seen a photo of an Ampeg-branded Vista Sonic in use was a factory shot of Dennis Kaeger testing an amp. (I hope I'm remembering that correctly.)

Not real thrilled with the tapewounds, but I've learned I'm not real fond of tapewounds in general. I tried a set of La Bella Copper Whites on my Squier VM Fretless and while they felt okay, the sound was underwhelming and the output was much lower than a set of non-tapes. I think I've got a set of DR Low Riders on that bass now, only because I had the set around and decided to try them on there. I'm tempted to see how the Vista Sonic would sound with a basic set of rounds; might they bring out more pleasing characteristics? Tapes in a way sound like throwing a thick blanket over the amp. My take, anyway, I know others love them.

Let me know if there are other details you want to see.

 

[JIO]

The best I could figure, based on components and Ampeg's timeline, is that it's probably a '63. Very few were imported, due to import tariffs making the Ampeg/Burns instruments economically unappealing. I think the only time I've seen a photo of an Ampeg-branded Vista Sonic in use was a factory shot of Dennis Kaeger testing an amp. (I hope I'm remembering that correctly.)

Not real thrilled with the tapewounds, but I've learned I'm not real fond of tapewounds in general. I tried a set of La Bella Copper Whites on my Squier VM Fretless and while they felt okay, the sound was underwhelming and the output was much lower than a set of non-tapes. I think I've got a set of DR Low Riders on that bass now, only because I had the set around and decided to try them on there. I'm tempted to see how the Vista Sonic would sound with a basic set of rounds; might they bring out more pleasing characteristics? Tapes in a way sound like throwing a thick blanket over the amp. My take, anyway, I know others love them.

Let me know if there are other details you want to see.

Oh yah I forgot, yours is an Ampeg-Burns... your bass was actually called the "Wild Dog Bass", Model EB.3 (1963-1964), basically a Vista Sonic with the Ampeg badge. So many things going on then. I have the Roto tape-wounds on a P/J and they sound good, but if the VS leans toward needing presence I too should go with rounds and the D'Addario XL's are my string of choice. I've tried the LaBella white (clear) tapes but only briefly. I seem to recall they sounded ok. If you ever take your pg off I'd love a pic of the harness. Most likely it would be the same as mine but who knows?

 

[farace]

Oh yah I forgot, yours is an Ampeg-Burns... your bass was actually called the "Wild Dog Bass", Model EB.3 (1963-1964), basically a Vista Sonic with the Ampeg badge. So many things going on then. I have the Roto tape-wounds on a P/J and they sound good, but if the VS leans toward needing presence I too should go with rounds and the D'Addario XL's are my string of choice. I've tried the LaBella white (clear) tapes but only briefly. I seem to recall they sounded ok. If you ever take your pg off I'd love a pic of the harness. Most likely it would be the same as mine but who knows?

Interestingly, mine still has the clear Vista Sonic badge on the headstock. I suspect that Ampeg called it whatever they felt like calling it.

If I get around to putting different strings on, I'll definitely pull the pickguard and take pics.

 

[JIO]

Interestingly, mine still has the clear Vista Sonic badge on the headstock. I suspect that Ampeg called it whatever they felt like calling it.

If I get around to putting different strings on, I'll definitely pull the pickguard and take pics.

I quoted one of my Burns book on that. That would be cool to see what's under the hood on you bass eventually.

 

[JIO]

Ordered the engraved neck plate and it will eventually be shipped from the UK with the 3 knobs. No hurry as the body & neck will be at Pat Wilkins for about a month anyway. I'll send him some reference pics but will ask for a semi-translucent (Fender) Hot Rod Red. Semi-translucent meaning a bit more pigment so the red is nearly opaque, similar to what he did with my green Scarab Deluxe Bass. The grain is subtle and only needs to be hinted at. The neck has some nice flashing so should look nice finished (red).

 

[Dynacord]

Ordered the engraved neck plate and it will eventually be shipped from the UK with the 3 knobs. No hurry as the body & neck will be at Pat Wilkins for about a month anyway. I'll send him some reference pics but will ask for a semi-translucent (Fender) Hot Rod Red. Semi-translucent meaning a bit more pigment so the red is nearly opaque, similar to what he did with my green Scarab Deluxe Bass. The grain is subtle and only needs to be hinted at. The neck has some nice flashing so should look nice finished (red).

The finish not nitro on these? Or does Pat do that now?

 

[JIO]

The finish not nitro on these? Or does Pat do that now?

Actually Burns used poly back then, which is what Pat uses.

 

[JIO]

There were lefties made in '62 - also shows an example of the mute-bar on the pg. I wish I had a side-by-side of both varieties to help confirm what's going on there. The amount of pg below the bridge pu seems to be the same as mine at 1/2" below the G side, but mine has 1/2" (where the mute would be) between the pg and the bridge rout whereas on the below example there is no space between the pg and the bridge rout. My questions would be is the pg bigger? is the bridge rout lower? are the pu's spaced differently?

 

[farace]

There were lefties made in '62 - also shows an example of the mute-bar on the pg. I wish I had a side-by-side of both varieties to help confirm what's going on there. The amount of pg below the bridge pu seems to be the same as mine at 1/2" below the G side, but mine has 1/2" (where the mute would be) between the pg and the bridge rout whereas on the below example there is no space between the pg and the bridge rout. My questions would be is the pg bigger? is the bridge rout lower? are the pu's spaced differently?

View attachment 3735285

I don't have answers, but, WHO THE HELL STRUNG THAT THING??? It's hurting my head worse than it already hurts.

I will note that, in looking at photocopies of Ampeg lit that I have around here somewhere (can't locate at the moment), there seemed to be a refinement of the body shape between '63 and '64 I think, for the Jazz Split Sound guitar. It could very well be that they did some redesign across the board around that time.

 

[JIO]

I don't have answers, but, WHO THE HELL STRUNG THAT THING??? It's hurting my head worse than it already hurts.

I will note that, in looking at photocopies of Ampeg lit that I have around here somewhere (can't locate at the moment), there seemed to be a refinement of the body shape between '63 and '64 I think, for the Jazz Split Sound guitar. It could very well be that they did some redesign across the board around that time.

Hah! Didn't see that! Gotta say - that is a first! I now have 2 books on Burns - just got "The Jim Burns Story". Reading about his history then, it was fairly crazy with lots of things changing day-to-day and having financial difficulties left and right. Somewhat like the early days of Fender, but in England.

 

[farace]

I have the two books, but it's been forever since I read them. I need to look through them again.

 

[Fender_Bender]

Hah! Didn't see that! Gotta say - that is a first! I now have 2 books on Burns - just got "The Jim Burns Story". Reading about his history then, it was fairly crazy with lots of things changing day-to-day and having financial difficulties left and right. Somewhat like the early days of Fender, but in England.

Sounds like one of those people who may be brilliant, but at the same time you don’t want them running the company. The overly convoluted truss rod gearbox thing would be something you wouldn’t want a barely solvent company to do when a simple one way rod would suffice.

 

[JimmyM]

Sounds like one of those people who may be brilliant, but at the same time you don’t want them running the company. The overly convoluted truss rod gearbox thing would be something you wouldn’t want a barely solvent company to do when a simple one way rod would suffice.

Well hey, it could have revolutionized the industry, too. Might as well go for the gusto when you get the chance

 

[JIO]

Sounds like one of those people who may be brilliant, but at the same time you don’t want them running the company. The overly convoluted truss rod gearbox thing would be something you wouldn’t want a barely solvent company to do when a simple one way rod would suffice.

Well hey, it could have revolutionized the industry, too. Might as well go for the gusto when you get the chance

I agree Jimmy - the more I read about Jim Burns and the company in those early days - it's kind of amazing what they pulled off. From "The Jim Burns Story" : "During their first 10 years, Fender marketed around three guitars and two basses with updates. Jim offered nine guitar models and eight bass models together with prototypes and variations within a five year period." He also innovated a number of "firsts" including the whammy bar prototype bass I posted earlier ('63), a prototype 12 string bass (baritone family), an electric upright (prototype), Solid State amps (early 60's), exclusive use of poly finishes (early 60's) and a superior tremolo bar system that didn't throw the guitar out of tune. His is a really interesting story - very mom & pop grass-roots. Gotta give kudos to his bold creative energy and headstrong charisma to form a business in the dawn of the '60s guitar boom. Consider also that at that same time, the Japanese were mass producing thousands of guitars that looked like Fenders, Gibsons and Burns for very little cost to young new players.

I knew very little about Burns of London before staring this project but am becoming more impressed with what I now am part of. In fact, my on-line contact to the Burns fb page (Bill Lovegrove) wrote a chapter in the Burns Story book, and the guy (Edward Cross) who is making the (replacement) engraved neck plate for my bass is the son of the guy (Edward Cross Sr) who made them for Burns from the beginning, cut on the same machines he used. Speaking of "Handcrafted", these early 60's basses/guitars were mostly hand cut, shaped and sanded by people - automation came later when Baldwin purchased the company in '65. So as much as one bass/guitar model looks like another, each bass/guitar is unique to the woodworker who worked on it, especially neck profiles. Fender was dong this in the '50s, but on a much bigger scale than Burns in the early '60s and with (it sounds like) more control over the consistency of replication. As an individual creator of 'one-off' basses, I'm drawn to the 'limited production' individuality of the Burns bass I recently acquired. Working on it is part utilitarian resurrection and part historic restoration.

Boxed and ready to ship (tomorrow) - I'm pretty psyched about seeing what Pat will do with it, he's never let me down over the many years I've dealt with him and he knows what I'm after.

 

[JIO]

Another cool thing about Burns/Ampeg/Baldwin guitars/bases, was the engraved scratch-plates. How many companies did that? Some, but not Fender (ever) that I'm aware of. Phil Kubicki sorta did it, but w/o a scratch-plate. (brand-name on the front of the body) Hofner did it I think, Vox did it...Gibson (T-bird/Firebird) did it... Gretsch did it (maybe influenced by Burns...) ... I guess a number of companies did it, but it's still cool.

 

[JIO]

I have the two books, but it's been forever since I read them. I need to look through them again.

I want to order strings - being that the VS is a medium-scale (32") is a medium-scale string what I want? As my strings of choice is D'Addario so I found this set. Will these work on the VS?

 

[farace]

I want to order strings - being that the VS is a medium-scale (32") is a medium-scale string what I want? As my strings of choice is D'Addario so I found this set. Will these work on the VS?

View attachment 3739433

It's medium scale? It's been awhile since I strung mine, but I'm pretty sure the Roto Tru Bass strings I put on there are long scale. I'll have to double-check.

I've been starting to appreciate lighter gauge strings. Maybe I'm getting old. I was looking at D'Addario XL 180 or 190 or thereabouts.

 

[JIO]

It's medium scale? It's been awhile since I strung mine, but I'm pretty sure the Roto Tru Bass strings I put on there are long scale. I'll have to double-check.

I've been starting to appreciate lighter gauge strings. Maybe I'm getting old. I was looking at D'Addario XL 180 or 190 or thereabouts.

Yes, it's 31.5" scale, 22 frets. I actually favor heavier gauge strings - especially on basses that need "more bass". (one's that are mid-centric in nature)

And here's some 1963 pricing info on your Ampeg EB-1 Wild Dog (AKA Burns Vista Sonic Bass) This was why there were not many basses like yours that entered the US market then :

The list price of the EB-1 Wild Dog Bass was even more out of sync with the U.S. market. Listed at $449.50, the Ampeg dog was wild alright. But a custom-color Fender Jazz Bass could be had for less than $300, and you could buy two sunburst Precision Basses for just under $460! Even the traditionally higher-priced Gibson EB-3 and Thunderbird IV (introduced a few months later) were significantly cheaper than the unfortunate Burns/Ampeg.

 

[farace]

Yes, it's 31.5" scale, 22 frets. I actually favor heavier gauge strings - especially on basses that need "more bass". (one's that are mid-centric in nature)

And here's some 1963 pricing info on your Ampeg EB-1 Wild Dog (AKA Burns Vista Sonic Bass) This was why there were not many basses like yours that entered the US market then :

The list price of the EB-1 Wild Dog Bass was even more out of sync with the U.S. market. Listed at $449.50, the Ampeg dog was wild alright. But a custom-color Fender Jazz Bass could be had for less than $300, and you could buy two sunburst Precision Basses for just under $460! Even the traditionally higher-priced Gibson EB-3 and Thunderbird IV (introduced a few months later) were significantly cheaper than the unfortunate Burns/Ampeg.

Strange I never noticed that, but I just checked and you're right. It feels like a significantly larger bass, and it fits perfectly in a long scale case that once held a Rickenbacker. Except for the E string, the silks on the long scale Roto Tru Bass fit it just fine.

I know different brands have different winding lengths.

Yes, the import tariff killed any chance Ampeg may have had of selling significant numbers of these. The guitars aren't common, either, but there are many more of those that turn up on the market.

 

[JIO]

Hank Marvin (lead guitar w/horn-rim glasses) became the poster-boy for Burns of London in the '60s. He was the first Brit to get a (Fiesta Red) Fender Stratocaster when the embargo was lifted in '59. (as seen in this vid) Burns introduced "The Marvin" in 1964, designed in conjunction with Hark Marvin and it copied much of his Strat. During that period all three guitarists played matching white Burns guitars and bass.