Actually the melody on "night and day" has the 3rd of the key against the ii chord making it a natural 9 on the min7b5 or a maj7#5 if you treat it as abmaj7
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Proper use of m7b5 chords
- Thread starter mambo4
- Start date
That's not until the second measure though, when its not D-7b5 (or Abmaj7) anymore, but G7. It still could imply a natural 9 on the minor 7b5 chord, though, but probably not a sharp 5 on the maj7, because although a natural 2 and b3 can coexist peacefully on a minor 7 b5, a #5 and natural 5 definitely can't cooperate on a major 7.
It really doesn't matter if it's 2nd measure or not. the ii and V chord are functioning the same and are interchangeable.
no no no no no
ii7b5 is a VERY different thing from V7.
In a minor ii V, things change dramatically on the V chord. This is why so many beginiing improvisers hit a brick wall on tunes like Autumn Leaves, where you can basically play "one scale" til you hit the V chord. Sit on a C over G7 and see what I mean. Voiceleading 101.
What matters is:
1. the melody for the bar in question. On night and day, measure one contains the 4th of the dm7b5 (In c.)
2. the third and basic quality of the chord.
you can build an improvisational cell (motive) using just the notes f g and ab. When you hit the 5 chord, things really change, since you now have all the altered extension to use as tension.
Until you know the piano player, it's a good idea to start simple like that in case (s)he does play an AbM7 on the first measure of an a section, as mentioned above.
Scales are only a small portion of the picture. Arpeggios and cells open up a whole world of vertical improvisation used by horns and pianists, but widely neglected by bassists.
Transcribe some modern horn solos and see how little tradtional "scalar" improvisation is used by masters like Brecker, Woody, Joe Henderson, even the great Janek Gwizdala!
ii7b5 is a VERY different thing from V7.
In a minor ii V, things change dramatically on the V chord. This is why so many beginiing improvisers hit a brick wall on tunes like Autumn Leaves, where you can basically play "one scale" til you hit the V chord. Sit on a C over G7 and see what I mean. Voiceleading 101.
What matters is:
1. the melody for the bar in question. On night and day, measure one contains the 4th of the dm7b5 (In c.)
2. the third and basic quality of the chord.
you can build an improvisational cell (motive) using just the notes f g and ab. When you hit the 5 chord, things really change, since you now have all the altered extension to use as tension.
Until you know the piano player, it's a good idea to start simple like that in case (s)he does play an AbM7 on the first measure of an a section, as mentioned above.
Scales are only a small portion of the picture. Arpeggios and cells open up a whole world of vertical improvisation used by horns and pianists, but widely neglected by bassists.
Transcribe some modern horn solos and see how little tradtional "scalar" improvisation is used by masters like Brecker, Woody, Joe Henderson, even the great Janek Gwizdala!
No it's not.
Which I've done for years. Woody, Brecker and Joe do plenty of diatonic/scalar improv as did Trane, Bird, etc.
A V7 chord is not significantly different from it's corrosponding II chord. In fact, a 13th chord can theoretically contain all 7 notes in the scale which is one of the ways coltrane derived his method of substitution. See my discussion on dodecaphonics at [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
no no no no no
for the kids:
dm7 b5- d f ab c
G7b9- g b d f ab
Notice how one has a C, and one has a B? Voiceleading 101.
The C is the big issue here. DOES NOT FIT OVER V. V chord is a tension sound, and the third of that chord (b) REALLY wants to resolve home to c. If you're gonna blow a c over the V, you've negated the whole point of tension and release. Yes, you can use all 12 notes over a 5 chord, but if you aren't aware of the specific harmony played by the pianist, (and you ain't hip like Trane etc...) you're just blowing giberish. Use it in passing in a blues lick, it's cool. Use it wantonly with disregard for harmony, and you just plain sound bad.
Let's please try to give precise foundational information about standardized harmony for people who use this sight as an educational tool.
No reason to flex your theory chops when the OP posted such a rudimentary question.
One more quick note-
If the two chords are so similar, how come I have two basic scalar options for one chord, and more than half a dozen for the other?! Yes, the heavy cats play all sorts of interesting concept, but the OP didn't ask about advanced improv. He asked what a half diminished chord is.....
for the kids:
dm7 b5- d f ab c
G7b9- g b d f ab
Notice how one has a C, and one has a B? Voiceleading 101.
The C is the big issue here. DOES NOT FIT OVER V. V chord is a tension sound, and the third of that chord (b) REALLY wants to resolve home to c. If you're gonna blow a c over the V, you've negated the whole point of tension and release. Yes, you can use all 12 notes over a 5 chord, but if you aren't aware of the specific harmony played by the pianist, (and you ain't hip like Trane etc...) you're just blowing giberish. Use it in passing in a blues lick, it's cool. Use it wantonly with disregard for harmony, and you just plain sound bad.
Let's please try to give precise foundational information about standardized harmony for people who use this sight as an educational tool.
No reason to flex your theory chops when the OP posted such a rudimentary question.
One more quick note-
If the two chords are so similar, how come I have two basic scalar options for one chord, and more than half a dozen for the other?! Yes, the heavy cats play all sorts of interesting concept, but the OP didn't ask about advanced improv. He asked what a half diminished chord is.....
no, no, no!
That's your limitation. The music has no such limitations. I agree that the original poster's question was very basic but at the same time, if you can't hear the voice leading of the 7th of the ii chord resolving to the 3rd of the 5 chord, you really think a chat site is going to teach you that?
And when folks google this topic, they will likely miss the OP's question and they will see your statement that the ii and V chords are functionally different and they are not. The ii chord is simply a suspension of the 3rd on the 5 chord and it's perfectly acceptable to play an 11th and omit the 3rd on a V chord and in the case of a m7b5 ii chord, the V chord might very well consist 11b9 chord with no 3rd.
dig your simplification.
if I'm teaching theory to an advanced student, I'll spell it out in a similar fashion. even tell em how you can just play V as the root over a major ii V as a pedal, and how that opens up improvisation for the cat blowing.
however, this level of analysis is not only beyond the OP's question, but it's also beyond 98% of the discussion on this board.
learning a bunch of subs as a novice or intermediate will only cloud your understanding of harmonic movement. if cats can't play the arps and the voice movement, then advanced concept will only stunt their growth, and introduce them to ideas they can neither grasp nor actually use in musical conversation.
like teaching geometry to a 1st grader...
as a dear friend of mine and wonderfully well to do working stiff said to me recetly: "I sure do get alot of milage out of the major scale."
if I'm teaching theory to an advanced student, I'll spell it out in a similar fashion. even tell em how you can just play V as the root over a major ii V as a pedal, and how that opens up improvisation for the cat blowing.
however, this level of analysis is not only beyond the OP's question, but it's also beyond 98% of the discussion on this board.
learning a bunch of subs as a novice or intermediate will only cloud your understanding of harmonic movement. if cats can't play the arps and the voice movement, then advanced concept will only stunt their growth, and introduce them to ideas they can neither grasp nor actually use in musical conversation.
like teaching geometry to a 1st grader...
as a dear friend of mine and wonderfully well to do working stiff said to me recetly: "I sure do get alot of milage out of the major scale."
guys,
please, stop. get a teacher. in fact, all of you, get a teacher. someone who has never looked at this website. and please, listen to some music. for the past 400 years there have been 12 notes. there are still 12 notes today. there is your harmony.
It is my guess that no one typing in here has a gig worth talking about, and therefor are really attempting to pursue every incorrect avenue of musical pursuit. If you had ever interacted with another musician who could actually play, you would never have reached this point of moronity in discussing things that are just wrong. And when I say wrong, I mean WRONG!
I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but you can't describe something as having a #9 quality, and also have an alternative name for it using the term "natural 9". Who didn't proof read that and realize it was absolute stupidity before it was posted, I don't know.
It will be very easy for you all to slate me as being pig headed, a "know it all", perhaps even arrogant, and definitely an ******.
But when it comes down to the line I actually care about this stuff. And the kind of crap you talk about it is perpetuating a non reality, and a downward spiral of musical misinformation. And not only do I care about this stuff, but I know a **** of a lot more about it than anyone posting in this thread seems to. And you can call me out for being a **** as long as you like, but at the end of the day I'm the one making my living from this, and you're the ones posting absolute nonsense about pretty much nothing in an online bass forum.
I hope this has been controversial. I hope it's **** a lot of you off. And I also hope it's made some of you stop talking about music like this. I really don't care what the reaction is to my post, but if it makes you think past the boundaries of your bedroom door, and out into the real world of interaction through music, then so much the better. And those in here who have been "teaching for 30 years"..... I haven't even been alive for 30 years and seem to have a far more steady grasp of functional harmony.
I leave you, hating everything that the locrian mode stands for.
Easy,
Janek
please, stop. get a teacher. in fact, all of you, get a teacher. someone who has never looked at this website. and please, listen to some music. for the past 400 years there have been 12 notes. there are still 12 notes today. there is your harmony.
It is my guess that no one typing in here has a gig worth talking about, and therefor are really attempting to pursue every incorrect avenue of musical pursuit. If you had ever interacted with another musician who could actually play, you would never have reached this point of moronity in discussing things that are just wrong. And when I say wrong, I mean WRONG!
I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but you can't describe something as having a #9 quality, and also have an alternative name for it using the term "natural 9". Who didn't proof read that and realize it was absolute stupidity before it was posted, I don't know.
It will be very easy for you all to slate me as being pig headed, a "know it all", perhaps even arrogant, and definitely an ******.
But when it comes down to the line I actually care about this stuff. And the kind of crap you talk about it is perpetuating a non reality, and a downward spiral of musical misinformation. And not only do I care about this stuff, but I know a **** of a lot more about it than anyone posting in this thread seems to. And you can call me out for being a **** as long as you like, but at the end of the day I'm the one making my living from this, and you're the ones posting absolute nonsense about pretty much nothing in an online bass forum.
I hope this has been controversial. I hope it's **** a lot of you off. And I also hope it's made some of you stop talking about music like this. I really don't care what the reaction is to my post, but if it makes you think past the boundaries of your bedroom door, and out into the real world of interaction through music, then so much the better. And those in here who have been "teaching for 30 years"..... I haven't even been alive for 30 years and seem to have a far more steady grasp of functional harmony.
I leave you, hating everything that the locrian mode stands for.
Easy,
Janek
and seriously, when has a diminished chord had a maj7 in it?
this is all rather pathetic, but I do care about it and would rather young musicians weren't subject to this nonsense.
This is a great forum, but this crap has to be stopped. What is a young player supposed to think when reading this BS?
Janek
and that's Janek Gwizdala email: [email protected]
website - www.janekgwizdala.com
myspace - Link Removed
this is all rather pathetic, but I do care about it and would rather young musicians weren't subject to this nonsense.
This is a great forum, but this crap has to be stopped. What is a young player supposed to think when reading this BS?
Janek
and that's Janek Gwizdala email: [email protected]
website - www.janekgwizdala.com
myspace - Link Removed
Diminished (8 tone scale) WHWHWHWH = R M2 m3 P4 D5 m6 bb7 M7
source: Aebersold scale syllabus and Ray Brown's Bass Method (although they call the bb7 a M6 - I disagree with this labeling)
Ladies and Gentlemen...Mr. Jeff Berlin.
Oh wait...my mistake.
Ok...Ok. In all seriousness I felt I needed to add something real to this post, although I think my initial remark was excellent.
There have been a couple of typos in this thread, which I recognize as typos and I don't feel the need to call them out with a flaming post which blatantly disregards TalkBass protocol. (Mr. Gwizdala, I have been suspended from TalkBass for weeks at a time because I typed words like "f*ck"...rather than blocking out the entire curse word (i.e. ####) So, I would watching your %$%^&*@ mouth...if I were you.) Your post addresses what I consider typos and semantic errors and the banter that ensues between parties whose conversation is marred with inadequate speech. Still, I find it humorous and extremely ironic that ryco tries to call you out when you asked what dim. chord has a major 7th in it...and then he spells a dim. chord SCALE straight out of Aebersold , in response. Case in point.
Obviously, this thread is fraught with many glaring semantical differences and I would bet that the two "theory snobs" (forgive the reference to another recent post) could work it out on the phone or in person, as the nature of the issue rests entirely on ones previous training and course of study.
But, I will state that I feel the logic of "I have better gigs than you, therefore, I am better than you (or/and) know more than you" is a logical fallacy.
Janekbass, you mention that you feel that neither of the people in this discussion "have a gig worth talking about", yet one member stated he has been teaching music for 30 years. I would say that is a pretty exemplary gig, which is worth talking about, in music circles. He has been teaching music longer than you have been alive...Wow. Granted, I assume you didn't get to where you are at, musically, without many imperfect and wonderfully human teachers. And I will remind you of the fact that many extremely capable and affluent musicians, can't teach for $#!^. I wouldn't want to take reading lessons from George Benson, ya dig.
Also, I really enjoy your playing.
Choice moments from above post:
"therefor are really attempting to pursue every incorrect avenue of musical pursuit"
"I haven't even been alive for 30 years"
"point of moronity"
"What is a young player supposed to think when reading this BS? "
"I'm the one making my living from this" (none of the other posters are? -and you know this?)
"It is my guess that no one typing in here has a gig worth talking about" !!!
-Some credentials from profiles (easy to look up):
Taught Indiana University, Bloomington, Michigan All State, Interlochen Arts Camp. Students at Berklee, IU, playing and recording in NYC.
Teaching Credentials:
Grove School of Music, Musicians Institute, and life.
I didn't post before in this thread, cause I was getting tired of the nomenclature pissing contest, myself. Asking myself why I bother coming here. Then this. Janek, you are really acting weird lately.
"therefor are really attempting to pursue every incorrect avenue of musical pursuit"
"I haven't even been alive for 30 years"
"point of moronity"
"What is a young player supposed to think when reading this BS? "
"I'm the one making my living from this" (none of the other posters are? -and you know this?)
"It is my guess that no one typing in here has a gig worth talking about" !!!
-Some credentials from profiles (easy to look up):
Taught Indiana University, Bloomington, Michigan All State, Interlochen Arts Camp. Students at Berklee, IU, playing and recording in NYC.
Teaching Credentials:
Grove School of Music, Musicians Institute, and life.
I didn't post before in this thread, cause I was getting tired of the nomenclature pissing contest, myself. Asking myself why I bother coming here. Then this. Janek, you are really acting weird lately.
Here's a couple.
1. First measure of "Bewitched" by Rogers/Hart
2. 10th measure of the B section of "Chega De Saudade" (jobim)
3. Last measure "Day Waves" (chick corea)
4. 6th measure of "Corcovado" (jobim)
It's not like these aren't commonly played tunes (well, the Chick Corea one no, but the Jobim tunes yes). The idea of having a major 7 on a diminished chord comes from one of two places. The first is the classical concept of a common tone diminished chord (at Berklee they're called auxiliary diminished chords), where the root of the chord proceeding it (or preceeding it) is common to the diminished chord. You can see that in the Jobim tunes, where the diminished chords built on the tonic degree resolve to the tonic major 7 chord. There's plenty examples in the classical cannon of this sort of thing (I'm pretty sure one of the movements of Mozart's K.545 has one of these in it) This harmonic device developed as a method of harmonic embellishment through chromatic neighboring tones, and as time progressed, you started to see these chords voiced as a major triad built on the leading tone over some sort of pedal on the root (B/C in the key of C major). The chord functions in the same way a common tone diminished chord functions, with all tones resolving chromatically, and basically amounts to a diminished triad with a major 7th. Make it a B7/C and you have a diminished 7 with a major 7 on it. Ask any seasoned guitarist or pianist what sort of substitutions they might play over the first bar in Misty, and they'll tell you D/Eb, which will resolve to a nice Ebmaj7 in the next bar.
The next rationale for the major 7 on a diminished 7 chord is in situations where its functioning as a chromatic dominant diminished chord. In the first tune I mentioned, Bewitched, you have a Cmaj7 going to a C#dim7 going to a Dm7. C#dim7 is basically saying the same thing as A7(b9) resolving to Dm7 - you have the guide tone resolution of the 3rd and 7th (C# to D, G to F), the typical tension resolution of the b9 (Bb to A), all over a chromatic bass motion. If you reinterpret the chord as A7/C#, then having what would be the major 7 of the C#dim7 chord on the chord isn't at all unreasonable. Having a C on an A7(b9) chord is just a #9, nothing weird about it at all.
That's the theoretical background in functional harmony for having the harmonic tension of a major 7 on a diminished chord. If you cared to know, although, now that I think about it, you obviously already do, being a far superior musician than everybody on this forum.
I must admit that the Major 7th is not in the diminished chord. Although, it is an "available tension" on a passing diminished chord SCALE, if the Major 7th note is naturally occurring in the key. Or at least that is what Ken Pullig taught me.
But what do I know, I only have a jazz comp. degree from Berklee...and they teach "turntables" as an instrument now ( [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ) I hope that in 40 years the "preforming record scratcher degree" is a must have.
hard to believe.
But what do I know, I only have a jazz comp. degree from Berklee...and they teach "turntables" as an instrument now ( [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] ) I hope that in 40 years the "preforming record scratcher degree" is a must have.
hard to believe.
if you teach for thirty years and still believe there is a maj 7 on a diminshed CHORD then I feel sorry for the thirty years of students....
If you had the presence of mind to call the CHORD a diminished maj7, then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation.
but the chord in question for this entire thread has been a m7b5 and a dim CHORD.
And if there are so many players on here that I don't know about who work full time as musicians, why didn't they call out the nonsense at the top of the thread?
it's got nothing to do with anyone having better gigs than anyone else either. It's got to do with the fact that someone states they have taught for so long, yet still can't spell out a chord correctly. The whole point was that he HAS been teaching music for longer than I've been alive and doesn't know how to spell out a diminished chord. It means nothing to me as I don't have to study with him, but it means a lot to people who look at this forum for information about these subjects.
Sure I can be an arrogant SOB sometimes, but I really don't care about that. I really DO care about music. And when something so simple is laid out by so many people, on what is an incredible forum on the whole, so badly.... it's a problem. there's no need for pages of analysis on a dim chord. Just spell it out. know what it's function is in harmony, and try and learn something from it, and figure out where the dim sound fits into your improvising or compositional voice.
Why talk crap for so long about nothing? I honestly can't believe it's 4:51am and I have the patience for this, but it is something I feel very strongly about.
Easy,
Janek
P.S. very good jab with the Jeff Berlin thing...... suffice to say I might never talk again in public if that's the perception..... I would really hate to be associated with such a ranting stream of abuse that he has managed to dish out to the world of music.
If you had the presence of mind to call the CHORD a diminished maj7, then we wouldn't need to be having this conversation.
but the chord in question for this entire thread has been a m7b5 and a dim CHORD.
And if there are so many players on here that I don't know about who work full time as musicians, why didn't they call out the nonsense at the top of the thread?
it's got nothing to do with anyone having better gigs than anyone else either. It's got to do with the fact that someone states they have taught for so long, yet still can't spell out a chord correctly. The whole point was that he HAS been teaching music for longer than I've been alive and doesn't know how to spell out a diminished chord. It means nothing to me as I don't have to study with him, but it means a lot to people who look at this forum for information about these subjects.
Sure I can be an arrogant SOB sometimes, but I really don't care about that. I really DO care about music. And when something so simple is laid out by so many people, on what is an incredible forum on the whole, so badly.... it's a problem. there's no need for pages of analysis on a dim chord. Just spell it out. know what it's function is in harmony, and try and learn something from it, and figure out where the dim sound fits into your improvising or compositional voice.
Why talk crap for so long about nothing? I honestly can't believe it's 4:51am and I have the patience for this, but it is something I feel very strongly about.
Easy,
Janek
P.S. very good jab with the Jeff Berlin thing...... suffice to say I might never talk again in public if that's the perception..... I would really hate to be associated with such a ranting stream of abuse that he has managed to dish out to the world of music.
I hate that all online forums reach this point of back and forth nit-picking inevitably. I am active in a few online music forums and see loads of erroneous information being "corrected" with even more erroneous information. Its sort of like a inbreeding of knowledge, or in this case harmonic theory. I don't even know where to start about whos right or wrong about this "Proper use of m7b5 chords". Seriously, almost every post I looked at had misinformation in it, which was followed by a post with even more problems. One of the few quotes I can actually use from this thread is this one:
