'Pure Sound'

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally posted by Steve Lawson


Bruce - I too like Franc's tone, though in terms of 'sound', his stuff doesn't quite strike me in the way that say 'Portrait of Tracey' or 'the Enormous Room' does - my enjoyment of his music is probably more compositional than 'sonic', if that makes sense...

keep them thoughts coming in - it's all making me think...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

I do know what you mean I think I like his album, because all the compositions are written around the bass line but still work as compositions in a Jazz context.

I go along to the Brighton Jazz club each week and while I love the music and there are always some great players, the bass (nearly always double bass) has a role that is clearly defined and supporting.

Whereas, I have seen Franc's quintet a few times in the same place and there is such a huge difference to me - but the music is still accepted by audiences in Jazz clubs - like the 606 in London.
Laurence Cottle is doing similar things as well and I suppose this is the area I would like to get into, so it has a big impact on me, but probably very few others.

Actually when you mention "Portrait of Tracy" - I think that the short solo bass track (Pearl for Maria) on Franc's album is like his own PoT, but deliberately avoiding harmonics and fretless sounds, so as not to have the inevitable comparisons.

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

Originally posted by stephanie
I guess it must've been his use of harmonics and his rapid 16th notes. I only have one Jaco CD but I listen to it all the time and that's what I get out of it...but there's something else to it, a 'voice' like I've said, I don't think there's words to explain it.

Great - now we're getting to the crux of the issue - it's very difficult to describe 'sound' - not notes, or even tone, but sound and the way it impacts you. And because of that, it's very difficult to make money from - bass and amp builders can sell 'tone' - SWR amps have a certain colour that they add to anyone's playing, but they can guarentee that you'll sound like Marcus or Manthing or Derek Smalls - that comes from a combination of all the things we've listed so far.

i think discussions like this are vital because we can get so into trying to quantify what we like and give things some kind of heirarchical value that doesn't exist - there's no best gear, no best chops, no best players, no greatest CD ever. We can do polls that tell us the things that have been best marketed, or the things that best connect with the largest number of people (sadly often the lowest common denominator), but self-expression and its ability to mean something to you, aside from any quest for novelty or relentless originality (as i've said before, i think it's far more important to be 'true' than to be original). when the bottom line for music is 'sound' not notes or chops, then it all gets a bit messy, a bit difficult to describe and quantify. You find that there are big name players that do absolutely nothing for you, and random bits of music that for some inexplicable reason really mean something way beyond the message of the words or the chops of the players.

I guess it comes back to things like integrity, authenticity and journey. there's no end point, we're all seeking and learning and trying to find our voice...

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

So are you including things like note choice, which Jaco mentioned in his video as being part of his sound? Things like what scales you might choose to use over particular chords are often associated with a Jazz musician's "sound" - like John Coltrane and sheets of sound. Or I've heard Mahler's symphonies described as the sound of the falling fourth.

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

it does include that, of course, but as music can actually be non pitched and still not be a drum solo, I think that the 'rule of notes' that governed writing up until the middle of the 20th century really still has a hold on the way that a lot of people view contemporary music... what you do with notes is important, but to use my own music as an example, I often have three different un-sync'd loops going at once on my live gigs now, and the effect created is not due to shifting harmony but more to texture. the harmony changes every time i play, because I tend not to compose those sections, and because the harmonic setting on the e-bow is fairly random, I don't know what the notes are going to be until i play them, so clearly the notes are not the issue, but the 'sonic environment'...

I do think that, like the Coltrane example you give, notes are important, but there are loads of players aroudn who play as fast as Coltrane, but don't have anything like his conceptual approach, his passion his fire. The fact that there are tens, possibly hundreds of books written trying to get to the bottom of what he was doing and where it came from suggests that it's much bigger than theory and technique... after-all, the Giant Steps solo is largely 1,2,3, 5 against each chord, but I'm buggered if i could sound like that using those notes... )

steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

on the theme of Mahler - it's interesting what happened to score writing in the 19th century - as writers like Wagner and Mahler realised that their musical vision couldn't adequately be expressed within the confines of the rather rudimentary notation of the day, they got more and more elaborate at describing the 'sound' - the notes and rhythms were all there but that wasn't enough. if you got back further, notes rules - Bach didn't even mention what instrument some of his keyboard works were meant for on the score - could be piano (only the later stuff), could be harpsichord, who cares - the notes were what rocked. For Mahler, his sound was far more textural, so the score got more complex to try and bridge the gulf between writing for musicians you wouldn't meet, but still controlling the sound. Into the 20th Century, and technology meant that musical works could be recorded in a definitive way via record instead of paper, and recorded music was now an end in itself - musique concrete meaning 'fixed' music, music that was established on tape and never interpreted. The legacy we now have is a mix of that tradition with the black music tradition that runs from Africa into North America and out again, from work-songs and spirituals, blues, dixie-land and into the various forms of Jazz. A heck of a lot of CDs now are completely unplayable live, due to the degree of step-time processing and post-production that goes on. For me, I wasn't really interested in that as an art form when I did my CD, or when I play live - it's about the connection between me, the audience and the venue, filtered through how I feel, and what I've been playing that week.

So now, there are composers working with every kind of sound - from traffic noise to bird song to computer generated tones to whatever - not thinking tonally, but texturally and rhythmically. I would suggest that perhaps the most important movement in western music in the last 30-40 years is hip-hop, in that at it's rawest - the synthesis of different tracks on a record deck with an MC, the process of looping and scratching live to create new rhythm and new texture from other people's music - it was a whole new 'cut 'n' paste approach that grew out of the neccesity for making music in a situation where people didn't have access to expensive instruments and tuition. The layering of clashing sounds in order to create a rhythm track is conceptually closer to charles Ives or Ornette's double trio, or Edgar Varese than it is to even the records that are being sampled!!! and it's as much about raw sound as it is about notes, I think...

steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I know what you mean and have a few CDs of early electronic and tape music. There is some extraordinary music out there and the Radio 3 programme "Mixing It" gets something every week that surprises me and makes me want to buy it.

They had an interview a month or so ago, with two composers who take their basic sounds from everyday "noises" and make music with it - I actually found some of it very listenable. The most bizarre piece was conceived entirely from the sounds of cosmetic surgery - liposuctions, nose jobs etc. They pointed out where they had used the sound of bones in the face being broken!

There was something also from a group called "Mouse on Mars" who have done things like this, but have gone to that extreme and come back to using conventional instrumentation and orchestration. I really liked the tracks they played on the programme and intend to buy the CD as soon as I see it.

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

Originally posted by Bruce Lindfield
Actually when you mention "Portrait of Tracy" - I think that the short solo bass track (Pearl for Maria) on Franc's album is like his own PoT, but deliberately avoiding harmonics and fretless sounds, so as not to have the inevitable comparisons.

If it's true that he avoided those things to avoid sounding like Jaco, that is, IMHO, rather sad - if there are sounds that support what you are going to say as a musician, then use 'em - Franc's not going to sound like Jaco if he tries - he's a fine player with his own vibe and sound. There may be traces of other players in there, as I'm sure there are in what I do, but I still sound like me playing a fretless bass and using harmonics all over the place.

...and, if I'm not mistaken, portrait of tracy was played on a fretted bass! there are a couple of tracks on Jaco's first album that are on fretted, and it STILL SOUNDS LIKE JACO - the essence of his sound was in his hands and his personality. Harmonics and fretless don't make you sound like jaco any more than piano and orgasmic groaning makes you sound like Keith Jarrett. jaco's influence is all over the place, but I don't believe it's inherent in a fretless bass. I avoided fretless bass for 11 years, because I was afraid of sounding like Pino more than Jaco - at the time, his sound was all I could hear on the instrument. I then got a call for a session that required a fretless, and got my modulus VJazz, which within a couple of months became my most played instrument, and a year later I got two more fretlesses - a Rick Turner and a Modulus Q6. I think I'd struggle to 'really' sound like Jaco on any of them - I could fumble my way through black market on the jazz and sound like someone trying to sound like Jaco but it's not going to be great. I'm sure that Franc, given his chosen style of music, could do a much more impressive jaco impersonation than I, but if he's writing a solo tune on a fretless bass, sounding like jaco or not should be the last thing on his mind - sounding like Franc should be top of the list - it's what he's best at.

BTW - this is in no way intended as a critique of Franc's playing or writing - he hasn't asked for it and i haven't given it - it's just a musing on the notion that things should be avoided if they are too closely associated with another player...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Sorry - that was probably more my thoughts than anything in the actual music. I listen to Franc's album and only hear his sound and ideas, although I know he is a big Jaco fan - as many people are - he has written a "tribute" to Jaco, called "Florida Flash". I don't really know what he was trying to do on Pearl and I shouldn't have written as if I did - the similarities are in the title and the fact that they are both solo bass pieces.

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

That's cool Bruce, it's interesting that you drew the comparison - solo bass is such a small field that there are bound to still be parallels drawn between those who did it first and people doing it now, especially when Franc's album is 'bassist as leader' with the one solo bass tune thrown in, similar to Jaco's debut.

i'm sure that as distance is built between the originator and those that follow, those comparisons will become less neccesary as the whole field of solo bass will widen out into different 'camps', just as solo acoustic guitar has done, or solo piano. At the moment, there is still an obvious and plottable lineage in the history of solo bass - from the upright guys like David Friesen and Eberhard Weber, and 'the original' Coin Hodgkinson (who may well have been the first to take that route with elec. bass), through Jaco and Stanley (who I think was the first to do a 'big' tour' with nothing but a bass guitar, or so one of his press releases said...) to Stu Hamm, Manthing, Jonas, Jeff doin' Dixie, Victor Wooten, and now the list grows longer, as the ever growing links page at Bad Link Removed will testify.

It's great that the whole field is growing, that people's approaches to solo bass are growing wider and wider - from pop/funk like Victor's stuff to Cat Hope in Australia who does industrial/noise stuff with just a bass!!

The comparisons that you make between Jaco and Franc are valid and sensible, and reflective of the limited lineage of solo bass, but they are links that will get dimmer as time goes on...

cheers

Steve
www.steve-lawson.co.uk

 

[Douglas Jones]

I think Marcus Miller revolutionized slap bass, every note he plays means something, is never thin, or wanky. His fretless tone is sweet. I love Jaco's tone also, and Anthony Jackson. Recently, I've been playing stand up and I think everyone should look up Boguslaw Furtok on you tube. You can't be any more bad ass than this guy is. No one on bass pages ever seems to metion this, but I think Reggae bass tones have litterally crushed all weaker sounds i.e. all the way from the groove master Aston "Family man" Barrett, this man has the best note placement of anyone ever. He is such a genius. He never wastes a note. Also check out Ziggy Marleys bass player Pablo Stennett, his tone slams, as do any of a number of reggae bass players. I also love the bass on all of Dr. Dre's cuts. Great tone, tons of space to breathe, and no wasted notes. I think reggae bass is highly underrated. Also Stevie Wonder, he's just so funk. I think Phil Lesh has some crushing tones too. Anyone else a reggae fan?

 

[deckard]

Many fine players mentioned here!

Here's a name you don't see mentioned a lot:

Nils-Henning Orsted Pederson.

His sound on upright is unparalleled IMHO, esp. his work with Oscar Peterson.

I recall the first time I heard him I could not believe the overall/sheer strength of his whole sound:

the ideas, the tone, the note-attack, actual note choice, the articulation, the fluidity, the precision, the strength (both physical and musical)... everything that made/makes up his sound...

With all due respect to the many, many fine URB players past & present, his sound made the hair on the back of my neck stand up & still does.

An astonishing sound from an astonishing player.


p.s. - as far as a player's sound being likened to a writer's "voice", one "voice" that stands out for me is that of Raymond Chandler - many have tried but none have equaled his "voice" as Philip Marlowe, a fact that becomes even more apparent if one reads Chandler's letters and correspondence... JMHO.

 

[Michael Manring]

What an interesting topic! Thanks Steve for posing these questions, to everyone for thought provoking comments and thanks especially for the kind compliments.

Sound and timbre is such an elemental force is music. A player’s voice is certainly personal and subjective and yet there does seem to be an objective element to it. I can‘t quite put my finger on it, but effective sound always seems to me to reflect a kind of undeniable honesty.

There are tons of sounds both musical and ambient I’ve found inspiring. I’d like to mention times when Steve’s sound was particularly moving to me, but I might be accused of quid pro quo! So instead I’ll mention what a thrill it was a few years ago to listen to the great Seattle bassist Paul Hinklin play a solo version of the “Ode to Joy” from Beethoven’s 9th on a P-bass with a pick through an SVT. Done by someone else in another context, a punk version of Beethoven might have come across as cheesy, but Paul being who he is, made the music feel alive and vital.

 

[Dr Steve Lawson]

Wow, it's fun when a 7 year old thread gets revisited, and we get to see what we thought/wrote back then...

..still a very interesting topic, especially coming back from NAMM where so many of the bass sounds on display seemed designed to cut through the noise of a trade show, rather than to make music work in a gig/recording/whatever setting...

Steve

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Wow, it's fun when a 7 year old thread gets revisited, and we get to see what we thought/wrote back then...

Yes - 7 years ago I was playing electric instruments and was always dis-satisfied with the sound and was constantly fiddling,buying stuff etc.

Now I have discovered the joy of playing purely acoustically and am 100% satisfied ......until I have to amplify my Double Bass!!

 

[Warlock]

Guys, I'm sitting here at my desk, sort of working and I'm really struggling 'cos I'm thinking bass tone, it's driving me almost insane! Anyhow, I've had this goal to get a double-bass. It was something to reward myself for a promotion.

I then started thinking, well what about Steve's sound and Michael's - is it the graphite necks? Is that the sound I need? I put The Jazz (DAB in the UK) on and hear old Charlie on there and wow! So where do I go for guidance? Talkbass. I click through some forums and think 'I'll ask the doyens - Steve and Michael' and here it all is! What a thread! Probably the greatest ever.

Bruce - I'm also mad at myself, I was in Brighton/Hove for two days last week and never did the Jazz Club! Tell me more about the place, please.

For me I love Charlie Haden's upright sound; Steve sound is great and best of all is that Zon of Michael's. I love the sound of a fretless, in fact I much prefer playing a fretless. Another great sound is that of the British jazz bassist, Fred T Baker and Fred uses an old Squire J bass and a Galen Kruger combo and the sound is wonderful! Jaco on Heirja is wonderful and his punchy fast runs sound fab.

I've spent a bomb trying to get the right sound and even playing with a Line 6 Bass POD XT Live always leaves me wanting something else. I usually end up going nude straight through my EA amp.

What does it take to get an ace fretless sound? Graphite neck? The wood? A Zon? Acoustic bass; Upright or tons on the right amp and effects? What drives me mad is that when I'm proping up the bar at a local opne mic night for acoustic folk, I can hear the sound I want in my head and yet can't get it with my current kit.

On the UK TV programmes (lat night's Jamie Oliver Cooking or the programme about Insurance Frauds) there is often a solo bass as the background sound-track - the bass always sounds lovely and I always hope beyond hopes that this isn't computer generated sounds that I am hearing.

Apols for the ramble...

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Bruce - I'm also mad at myself, I was in Brighton/Hove for two days last week and never did the Jazz Club! Tell me more about the place, please.

Brighton Jazz club has been going for many years now at different venues on Friday night - but has just moved to the basement of the Komedia.

But it's always been about the very high standard of musicians they get - the very best of UK Jazz talent and occasional US and European visitors.

Tonight they have Peter King - one of our best Alto players leading a new quartet that has Geoff Gascoyne on bass - Jamie Cullum's basssist and arranger - but don't hold that against him - he is an excellent DB player and composer in his own right !

 

[Warlock]

Thanks Bruce. Pity it's a Friday, I'm a mid-week visitor to the town. Re sound, tone, timbre (or it that a lumberjack phrase?) - how do the EUB compare to traditional uprights?

Dave.

 

[Jamolah]

A player whose sound never fails to floor me in Gary Willis. There's a clinic video up on bassplayer.tv where Gary does a little bit of talking about his right hand technique, and does some grooving with loops from his laptop. Very inspiring.

Actually, I often find the sound of a particular player to be more musically inspiring to me than, say, the notes/technique used in a lick. I'll be walking along the street, mp3 player firmly attatched, and suddenly a little bit of sonic loveliness will leap out at me and make me think "Oh man, thats such a sweet sound! Wish I had my bass...". It's not that the sound I produce will be anywhere near the same, usually. I just get caught up in trying to create a similar response, to get my own sound to move me (or anyone else) in a way close to that orignal sound. It puts me in a much more musical mood than a lick on its own would, just underlining how fundamentlal sounds and tones are to the experience of listening to music. If it wasn't important then every two-bit cover band in the world would sound just as boss as the records they cover. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference between, say, Elvis Presley and Big Daves Magic Rubber Band...

Interesting subject. Definate food for thought.

Love JP

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Thanks Bruce. Pity it's a Friday, I'm a mid-week visitor to the town. Re sound, tone, timbre (or it that a lumberjack phrase?) - how do the EUB compare to traditional uprights?

Dave.

Well ...EUB with a 42" scale length, proper DB strings and the right technique can get somewhere towards an amplified DB - but nothing beats the real thing!

I bought the EUB as I could not find a DB that I liked in my price range at the time - having done that though, I find real DB immensely more satisfying to play and helps to get the kind of sound and feel I really love!

I keep the EUB as an indestructible backup and for gigs where there is little room - it is also easier to amplify at high volume, being solid.

So - dropped my DB on the floor from a few feet and the neck pops off!!Easy to get repaired in time, but disastrous if on the way to a gig! Whereas the EUB survived a car crash on the M4 completely intact and may well have taken the full impact of a car that hit me side-on!

 

[jazzbasser535]

I think Greg Cohen's sound in John Zorn's Masada is beautiful. Not only the tone of the bass (very woody and moaning) but the hypnotically repetitive lines. That whole group has an incredible sound, IMO.