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Putting a low B string on a 4 string bass?

#41
fourstringburn said:
Yes it is true!

Simple physics that the lower the pitch the longer the string to obtain near true resonance.

Look inside a grand piano, rhe lower the register the longer the strings.

Your ears hear what you want to hear and that's not real science, sorry!
Click to expand...

Lol. Ok. You’re the expert I guess. I’m not going to waste my time arguing with your “science”. I’m just going to call it what it is: complete nonsense.
 
#43
John Bess said:
Anyone have any experience playing a 4 string tuned to B standard? I need the lower notes for a heavy rock project I'm starting and I no longer have my six string.

I'm in the market for a nice American Fender. I could go 5 string, but I would much rather invest in a vintage instrument, probably something from the 70s, and tune it to B.

My concerns are the B string fitting in the nut and neck issues with the extra tension without the extra mass of a five string neck.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...
This is a production model tuned B E A D.

Invalid Link Removed
 
#44
fourstringburn said:
Yes it is true!

Simple physics that the lower the pitch the longer the string to obtain near true resonance.

Look inside a grand piano, rhe lower the register the longer the strings.

Your ears hear what you want to hear and that's not real science, sorry!
Click to expand...
What you are saying is true, but not complete. Physics tells us that there are three factors that control the pitch of a vibrating string; your explanation is leaving out one of them.

The three factors that control the vibrational frequency (i.e., pitch) of a vibrating string are:
  1. Tension,
  2. length, and
  3. mass (which is basically the same thing as saying 'gauge')
The idea that one needs a longer scale length to get the necessary tension out of a string tuned to B completely ignores the mass (i.e., gauge) of the string. Unfortunately, a long time ago people got used to the idea that 0.125" is an acceptable gauge for a B string on a 34" scale bass; I say unfortunately because the tension of that string on a 34" scale tuned to B is just under 33 lbs, whereas a typical 0.105" string tuned to E has a tension of about 43 lbs. (Note: On a bass, the tension of the strings should be somewhere around 38-44 lbs; any less and the strings start to feel floppy, any more and they are hard to fret.) This is why B strings on most production 5-string basses feel floppy - almost everyone uses 0.125 gage strings. If you increase the gage of the string to 0.136 and tune to B, the resulting tension is over 39 lbs. I put this gauge on all of my 34" scale 5-string basses, and I've had multiple other bass player insist that my basses must be at least 35" scale because the B-strings feel so tight. What's really funny is that adding an extra inch to the scale length only add about 1.5-2 lbs of tension to a 0.125 tuned to B, and it's not until you get to 36" scale that you really see a benefit in terms of balancing the tension.

I think it's a shame that the idea of needing a 35" scale became so ingrained in our collective conscious, when all you really need it a heavier string. I know that I tried a lot of 35" scale instruments in the past, and it wasn't until I realized about mass that I was able to finally get instruments that play the way I want.

-Y
 
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#45
As said above, going from EADG to BEAD almost always decreases the total tension on the neck. My #1 is a '59 P (reproduction) tuned BEAD and the B string is awesome. I use a tapered 125 B to better match the tonality of the E, A, and D strings.

There is something about B strings though. The same string on different bases can yield different results. One bass will feel well controlled and sounds tight while another bass feels a bit floppy and loose. Yes, at the same scale length.

- John
 
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#47
I have a 34" scale bass, tuned down a 1/2 step with a double stop detuner on it. Inhave the detuner set to Db and A#. I use a .100 E string, and even when I go to that low A#, it sounds great. You can probabaly get away with standard gauge strings without modifying the nut.

Sorry if this came up already, haven't read the whole thread
 
#48
JKos said:
As said above, going from EADG to BEAD almost always decreases the total tension on the neck. My #1 is a '59 P (reproduction) tuned BEAD and the B string is awesome. I use a tapered B to better match the tonality of the E, A, and D strings.

There is something about B strings though. The same string on different bases can yield different results. One bass will feel well controlled and sounds tight while another bass feels a bit floppy and loose. Yes, at the same scale length.

- John
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This is true - the actual tension in lbs is a hard number that depends on mass and length, but setup and other factors make a big difference in the perceived tension (i.e. how stiff or loose it feels when you play).

I also agree about using taperwound strings for the heavier gauges. Makes them noticeably brighter.

-Y
 
#49
i have a couple basses just for BEAD. i don't miss the G string at all; all you're losing is the 5 very highest notes, and you rarely need those. had to adjust playing positions for some things, no big.

had to file out the nut slots a bit, and tweak the truss rod(s) and intonation; also no big.
 
#51
Yools said:
I think it's a shame that the idea of needing a 35" scale became so ingrained in our collective conscious, when all you really need it a heavier string. I know that I tried a lot of 35" scale instruments in the past, and it wasn't until I realized about mass that I was able to finally get instruments that play the way I want.

-Y
Click to expand...

I'll chime in here - being an Acoustical Physicist, this is pretty much the answer, but there is one more twist.

Bass players have gotten so used to string diameters with an arithmetic progression in diameter (like 40-60-80-100) that we somehow think this is right. It isn't - for even tensioning (which means the bass is more playable, as each string has the same feel), string diameters should follow a geometric progression, where each string (going down) is bigger than the one before not by a step in diameter of a certain size, but by a ratio - 1.33 is the ratio of frequencies, and (once you put in a square and a square root (which cancel each other)) in the math, it turns out the diameters should have this ratio relationship as well. In a 4 string set, because the string diameters usually follow the wrong relationship, the E string is lower in tension than the D and A strings (often the G string is less tense as well, due to the same ration issue). Repeating this error once more for the B string, and it's flop city. If your E string is a 100, and you like that tension, your B should be a 133. I like really light gauge strings, so my E is a .095. My B on my 5 string is a 130, which is heaver than some sets with 105 E's have. The problem is that the strings aren't made right. Making the bass an inch longer does increase the tension of the B string, but it also makes the other strings stiffer, which for many of us isn't progress.

Oh, and by the way, the shorter a beam is, the stiffer it is. A 34 inch neck made from the same materials and cross section is stiffer than a 35 inch one - a shorter neck is actually a better neck. The problem is a string problem, fixing it at the root cause (bigger B strings) is better than bandaiding around it.
 
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#54
Yools said:
What you are saying is true, but not complete. Physics tells us that there are three factors that control the pitch of a vibrating string; your explanation is leaving out one of them.

The three factors that control the vibrational frequency (i.e., pitch) of a vibrating string are:
  1. Tension,
  2. length, and
  3. mass (which is basically the same thing as saying 'gauge')
The idea that one needs a longer scale length to get the necessary tension out of a string tuned to B completely ignores the mass (i.e., gauge) of the string. Unfortunately, a long time ago people got used to the idea that 0.125" is an acceptable gauge for a B string on a 34" scale bass; I say unfortunately because the tension of that string on a 34" scale tuned to B is just under 33 lbs, whereas a typical 0.105" string tuned to E has a tension of about 43 lbs. (Note: On a bass, the tension of the strings should be somewhere around 38-44 lbs; any less and the strings start to feel floppy, any more and they are hard to fret.) This is why B strings on most production 5-string basses feel floppy - almost everyone uses 0.125 gage strings. If you increase the gage of the string to 0.136 and tune to B, the resulting tension is over 39 lbs. I put this gauge on all of my 34" scale 5-string basses, and I've had multiple other bass player insist that my basses must be at least 35" scale because the B-strings feel so tight. What's really funny is that adding an extra inch to the scale length only add about 1.5-2 lbs of tension to a 0.125 tuned to B, and it's not until you get to 36" scale that you really see a benefit in terms of balancing the tension.

I think it's a shame that the idea of needing a 35" scale became so ingrained in our collective conscious, when all you really need it a heavier string. I know that I tried a lot of 35" scale instruments in the past, and it wasn't until I realized about mass that I was able to finally get instruments that play the way I want.

-Y
Click to expand...

I agree with all this except the "should be" phrase as people vary in what they like to feel and how they play can affect their ideal string tension. I am personally with you, in that I prefer, for lack of a better word, "standard" string tension.

BUT, I also dislike playing big strings. I find them clumsy and often not very resonant. I play in very low tuning so I've experimented with high mass strings. It's all kind of a compromise in the end, what of the three factors are you most comfortable modifying. You prefer bigger strings to a longer scale, and I'm the opposite. Id rather play a smaller string and increase the length to maintain tension. I barely noticed a difference playing a 35 vs 34 inch scale, and when I was able to get the tension and sustain I liked out of reasonably sized strings, I was sold on the longer scale.
 
#59
John Bess said:
Changing the nut is out of the question. Reliability is key.
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Leaving the nut as is, and putting bigger strings on it, the strings (the B string in particular) will be trying to separate/break the nut - the forces on the sidewalls may not break it, but then again, they might. If reliability is key, you gotta refile the nut. If changing the nut is out of the question, then you have to accept that reliability is not key - it's one or the other.
 
#60
I didn’t read every other post but if it hasn’t been said, look at getting a tapered set of strings. The low strings are tapered at the ball end so the huge winding doesn’t break over the saddle, only the narrower center wraps do. Looks odd but it helps a lot with intonation adjustments.

I’ve strung quite a few 4’s BEAD and never had any issues with them. Widen the nut slots a bit, adjust the truss and bridge as needed, and go. I’ve done cheap Ibanez to expensive Warwicks and they all take to it just fine.
 
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