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Putting my bass on steroids

#41
Hopkins said:
Resistance is resistance. If a cheap $0.12 pot reads 250k ohms on a meter, and the most expensive pot you can find reads the same resistance there will be absolutely zero difference in tone, or output. The sweep may be slightly different, so volume levels, or more or less high end can be bled off through the cap with both pots at the same position, but if you set them to the same resistance, even if they are at different parts of the sweep, they will sound exactly the same. This is a fact. Quality in pots comes from longer life, and consistency in how close they are to the advertised value. It has nothing at all to do with the tone.
Click to expand...

I agree it will not directly affect the tone. I could have stated it better. With lower end instruments, the quality of the parts will not be optimum. And the 250K pot should probably be a 500K. The pots and capacitors used can give you more finite control over your tone. I have an El Cheapo Les Paul copy that now suffers from a common malady caused by low end components. When you back down the volume pot for a pickup, the tone pot loses it and becomes a volume control. This is because the capacitor is under sized. Yes, a very good pot and a very poor pot will initially read the same resistance, but over time, the better pot will maintain its readings and is less likely to become noisy.
 
#42
Gravedigger Dav said:
I agree it will not directly affect the tone. I could have stated it better. With lower end instruments, the quality of the parts will not be optimum. And the 250K pot should probably be a 500K. The pots and capacitors used can give you more finite control over your tone. I have an El Cheapo Les Paul copy that now suffers from a common malady caused by low end components. When you back down the volume pot for a pickup, the tone pot loses it and becomes a volume control. This is because the capacitor is under sized. Yes, a very good pot and a very poor pot will initially read the same resistance, but over time, the better pot will maintain its readings and is less likely to become noisy.
Click to expand...


If the tone control acts as a volume, it is because it is somehow taking the signal to ground. There is no such thing as an undersized capacitor, different values will remove more or less high end from the signal, but should in no way effect volume. It sounds like something is either wired wrong, or the pot is bad and somehow bleeding signal to ground. Again, quality pots are worth the upgrade because they last longer, and tend to have slightly more resistance when turning so the knob feels better. They do not have any effect on tone.
 
#43
Hopkins said:
If the tone control acts as a volume, it is because it is somehow taking the signal to ground. There is no such thing as an undersized capacitor, different values will remove more or less high end from the signal, but should in no way effect volume. It sounds like something is either wired wrong, or the pot is bad and somehow bleeding signal to ground. Again, quality pots are worth the upgrade because they last longer, and tend to have slightly more resistance when turning so the knob feels better. They do not have any effect on tone.
Click to expand...
So everything I researched about why it was behaving that way is wrong? I found several posts describing problem and how to fix it. You are missing a key fact in regards to pot resistenace. The range of 500K pot is greater than the range of a 250K, so each degree of increment on the 500 is more than on the 250, so it does give you finer control over your tone and volume. And yes, the signal, according to my research, is going to ground because the capacitor between the tone and volume pots is undersized. So if you have an EE degree from Texas A&M, or MIT, then you have my attention; otherwise, I will depend on my electronics training and research.
 
#44
Gravedigger Dav said:
So everything I researched about why it was behaving that way is wrong? I found several posts describing problem and how to fix it. You are missing a key fact in regards to pot resistenace. The range of 500K pot is greater than the range of a 250K, so each degree of increment on the 500 is more than on the 250, so it does give you finer control over your tone and volume. And yes, the signal, according to my research, is going to ground because the capacitor between the tone and volume pots is undersized. So if you have an EE degree from Texas A&M, or MIT, then you have my attention; otherwise, I will depend on my electronics training and research.
Click to expand...


I am not missing anything regarding pot resistence. I never even brought up 500k vs 250k pots. I simply used 250k as an example. There is no such thing as an undersized cap in a guitar, as cap voltage ratings will always be higher than the signal a pickup can produce. You can have a cap which has a value that is not at all ideal, to high can make a guitar or bass sound like mud, to low can have very little effect on tone. This of course is when the tone control is rolled back. But unless it is faulty it will not take the signal to ground, unless the leg of the cap connected to the pot lug is grounded out by touching the back of the pot.
 
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#45
Hopkins said:
I am not missing anything regarding pot resistence. I never even brought up 500k vs 250k pots. I simply used 250k as an example. There is no such thing as an undersized cap in a guitar, as cap voltage ratings will always be higher than the signal a pickup can produce. You can have a pot which has a value that is not at all ideal, to high can make a guitar or bass sound like mud, to low can have very little effect on tone. But unless it is faulty it will not take the signal to ground.
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Thanks for your input, but I don't agree with your assessment. I will be changing out the wiring harness next week.
 
#47
Hopkins said:
Please educate me. What makes a capacitor undersized? Value? Physical size? And also please explain why an undersized cap will take the whole signal to ground instead of certain frequencies?
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Physical size and Value. As to why, I don't really know, but what I hear is if I have the volume and tone all the way open and the other pickup pots closed, and I back the volume to about 70%, then as I rotate the tone control, the tone change is negligable, but the volume descreases until the tone pot is about 50%, then all volume is gone. This is just one of the sites. It doesn't get into the technical, but it might be an interesting read for you:
http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm

Here is one not very technical, but explains it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#48
Gravedigger Dav said:
So everything I researched about why it was behaving that way is wrong? I found several posts describing problem and how to fix it. You are missing a key fact in regards to pot resistenace. The range of 500K pot is greater than the range of a 250K, so each degree of increment on the 500 is more than on the 250, so it does give you finer control over your tone and volume.
Click to expand...

More resistance in the pot does not give you finer control of the tone. It changes the available frequency sweep of the control. The formula for frequency in a low-pass filter (which is what a tone control is) is 1 / (2 * pi * R * C) So yes, you will hear a difference. But this is a design issue, not a quality issue. It is a question of how much sweep is the control supposed to have?

A 250k pot vs. a 500K pot with either one having either an audio taper or a linear taper is a matter of personal preference. You can "upgrade" or "downgrade" according to that, but thats not really what we were debating.

The question we have been addressing is if a $.50 pot sounds any different than a same spec $10.00 pot and the answer is no. Otherwise there would be a variable in the formula I mentioned representing a dollar sign.

As for low voltage wiring, the only frequencies wire gauge or type will affect are not even within the bass guitars range... or most human ears for that matter. I'd be skeptical if squirrels claimed they could hear a difference.

Capacitors.... Well, there are some slight variations to the voltage response curvein different kinds of caps, but these aren't going to translate into any change in tone.

Pickups. Pickups make all sorts of difference in tone. So does the strength and stiffness of the neck of your bass. So does your strings. If you want to change TONE... start with these.,
 
#49
Nev375 said:
More resistance in the pot does not give you finer control of the tone. It changes the available frequency sweep of the control. The formula for frequency in a low-pass filter (which is what a tone control is) is 1 / (2 * pi * R * C) So yes, you will hear a difference. But this is a design issue, not a quality issue. It is a question of how much sweep is the control supposed to have?

A 250k pot vs. a 500K pot with either one having either an audio taper or a linear taper is a matter of personal preference. You can "upgrade" or "downgrade" according to that, but thats not really what we were debating.

The question we have been addressing is if a $.50 pot sounds any different than a same spec $10.00 pot and the answer is no. Otherwise there would be a variable in the formula I mentioned representing a dollar sign.

As for low voltage wiring, the only frequencies wire gauge or type will affect are not even within the bass guitars range... or most human ears for that matter. I'd be skeptical if squirrels claimed they could hear a difference.

Capacitors.... Well, there are some slight variations to the voltage response curvein different kinds of caps, but these aren't going to translate into any change in tone.

Pickups. Pickups make all sorts of difference in tone. So does the strength and stiffness of the neck of your bass. So does your strings. If you want to change TONE... start with these.,
Click to expand...
http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
 
#50
Gravedigger Dav said:
Physical size and Value. As to why, I don't really know, but what I hear is if I have the volume and tone all the way open and the other pickup pots closed, and I back the volume to about 70%, then as I rotate the tone control, the tone change is negligable, but the volume descreases until the tone pot is about 50%, then all volume is gone. This is just one of the sites. It doesn't get into the technical, but it might be an interesting read for you:
http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm

Here is one not very technical, but explains it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

Neither of those links mention anything about capacitor size, other than the first article that says the physical size of the super expensive "supercap" must make it better than the smaller ceramic one. They make no explianation as to why. The second link just describe how the cap works in the circuit.

An "undersized" cap as far as value goes would have the oposite effect as it would bleed less signal to ground. The physical size only has to do with cap constrution and in no way effects how it performs in a guitar circuit.
 
#51
Gravedigger Dav said:
Physical size and Value. As to why, I don't really know, but what I hear is if I have the volume and tone all the way open and the other pickup pots closed, and I back the volume to about 70%, then as I rotate the tone control, the tone change is negligable, but the volume descreases until the tone pot is about 50%, then all volume is gone. This is just one of the sites. It doesn't get into the technical, but it might be an interesting read for you:
http://www.geetarz.org/axes/green.htm

Here is one not very technical, but explains it.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Click to expand...

Sounds more like the controls are interacting with each other, as they are not isolated from each other (assuming a passive bass).

Phyiscal size of a capacitor can have a difference in it's tonal qualities but I doubt the difference would be measureable in the phyical sizes of capacitors that can fit in a control cavity. This is due to a real capacitor not being the same as the idea.
 
#53
Hopkins said:
Neither of those links mention anything about capacitor size, other than the first article that says the physical size of the super expensive "supercap" must make it better than the smaller ceramic one. They make no explianation as to why. The second link just describe how the cap works in the circuit.

An "undersized" cap as far as value goes would have the oposite effect as it would bleed less signal to ground. The physical size only has to do with cap constrution and in no way effects how it performs in a guitar circuit.
Click to expand...

It does mention expected values in guitars and basses. I would agree that physical size has no impact. Maybe I am reading it incorrectly, but the article does say that.
I really don't understand why you are so hung up on this. I observed a problem, I did research and found consistent information on what causes the problem and how to resolve it. Much of what you are saying contradicts that. So, here is my plan. I am going to swap out the components and ensure the wiring is correct. If that doesn't work and you post a solution I might try, I'll give that a shot. But, if your idea is less expensive, I'll try that first, but the guitar, as is, is not really playable.
 
#54
What I am saying about capacitor value is true, the higher the value, more high frequency range is bled to ground. Your problems could be that the cap you have is faulty and is causing a direct short to ground, the cap lead that is connected tothe pot terminal could be touching the back of the pot, it could be wired wrong, or the pot could be bad. None of these has anything to do with it being undersized.
 
#56
WOW this thread got hijacked to the max. LOL at WyreAndWood, sorry dude, your wrong on all fronts. And yes I have replaced cheap stock pots with better ones and it really makes ZERO difference. You sound like your a guitard that got bored and decided to sign up on a bass forum to troll more educated folks. The are many very experienced pros on this board, including Hopkins. You'd be well advised to listen to them..

OP, back on topic. As long as you bridge is stable it will make nearly no difference. The biggest difference is going to be made in strings, pickups and preamp. I would start with strings. Those are going to be the cheapest to start with. Just try a few different ones out. Spend some time reading in the strings forum about the differences in tone with the different kinds. Also email Jason from BassStringsOnline.com he is super helpful and a member here (goes by the handle SlapinFunk i think) and he also has great prices on strings.

If different strings just don't cut it then Pickups will make the biggest difference. From what I could find your bass is a P/J format. There are TONS of options for this pickup layout and they have a wide variety of tones. If your thinking about pups please give a more detailed description of what your looking for and we can help. Examples like youtube vids would really tell us what your looking for.

Preamp will make a good difference but it really depends on how you use it. The best I could say your get from them is that they will make great pups fantastic and bad pickups ok. I would go with pre as a finisher to top off a a great string and pup combo. I used the stock pre when i changed pups and it sounded pretty good. I then changed to a Bartolini preamp which sounded better but was not as big of a difference as the pickups.

A setup will make the bass play a lot better. not necessarily change its sound but make it more comfortable to play. It could sound different if your playing style changes due to it though. Even cheap basses can get pretty good action. Its just a matter of how well its set up. Its not hard to do but does require a little practice to learn to really dial in an absolutly perfect setup.
 
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#59
I feel like I am missing something...not the smartest guy, so bear with me.

When I see discussions about capacitor values, I repeatedly see "high value means dark and bassy", or variations of that.
What would be considered high value vs. low value?
I am getting the parts together for a jazz bass, and have been spending way too much time reading about capacitors on the internetz. Going to Radio Shack today for alligator clips and cheap caps so I can start experimenting with values, but the math really has me thrown.

shawn
 
#60
spc said:
I feel like I am missing something...not the smartest guy, so bear with me.

When I see discussions about capacitor values, I repeatedly see "high value means dark and bassy", or variations of that.
What would be considered high value vs. low value?
I am getting the parts together for a jazz bass, and have been spending way too much time reading about capacitors on the internetz. Going to Radio Shack today for alligator clips and cheap caps so I can start experimenting with values, but the math really has me thrown.

shawn
Click to expand...

you are mostly correct. The higher the value the darker the sound will be when the tone knob is turned all the way down. If your going to get a few to try out I would recomend getting a .022, .o47, .47 and a 1M. I think those are the values I tried out. I've used the .022 and it just darkens it just a little. The 1M is more of the super old school P bass style. Mad dark.
 

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