Double Bass Putting orchestra parts down an octave

[jacobh]

I’m an amateur player who does quite a lot of orchestral work and I am sometimes troubled by when it is appropriate to put a bass part down an octave if you have a five string or extension and the part was written for a bass which didn’t go below an E. I am quite interested in what the professional conventions are about this; whether they are to play parts as written; as they might have sounded had 5 strings been available in the past; or something else?

I think there are four main situations when this arises. In the first (A in the attached image), the bass part just jumps an octave up when it goes below the E whilst the 'cello carries on going down to the bottom of its range. I would usually play what is written for the 'cellos without hesitation.

In the second (B) the bass part has been substantially rewritten from the 'cello so that the octave jump is a little less obvious. Again, I would usually play the 'cello’s part but often conductors do not agree. Equally, unless the publishers have produced a double 'cello / bass part (e.g. the Frank symphony) it can be hard to unpick when this has happened without going through a score in advance.

The other two situations concern when the bass part is independent of the 'cellos. I’m am never quite sure what is the appropriate thing to do in these situations. For example, in (C), the bass part plays a pedal which could either be the same octave as the bottom of the 'cellos or an octave below. In the final example (D), the 'cellos are an octave higher and so the bottom octave for the bass would be a 16' basso; two octaves below the normal “bass”.

Often putting the bass note down an octave so there are two octaves between it and the 'cellos sounds very effective; it adds weight, gravity and finality to a piece that is otherwise missing. I particularly remember doing this two a dominant pedal at the end of a fugue when playing continuo a few years ago. After the concert, I overheard a couple of people talking about how good it was having a bass player because of the “8' foot bass” at the end of that movement; I don’t think they realised it was actually an octave lower than that and an octave lower than it should have been! However, it sometimes seems a bit too much, particularly at the ends of first movements of symphonies, and I wonder if it sounds a bit too amateurish. One thing I’ve never had the courage to try is at the start of the Tchaikovsky Serenade for Strings where I often think the unison melody would sound considerably better with the basses dividing into two octaves for a “basso profundo” sound.

Anyway, enough of my ramblings; I was wondering what more those with a more professional outlook though? Apologies if this has been discussed before; I haven’t been able to find any helpful posts when searching!

-Jacob

 

[eerbrev]

I'm still a student in university, but from what I have seen, it is up to both the principal and the conductor as to whether to take a note down or not and they will use both the cello line and what is musically appropriate to make a decision.

in terms of the examples you have given, off the cuff the only one I would say would almost likely go down the octave is example A. B, maybe, but neither of the lower examples likely would.

hopefully someone more professional has some insights.

eerbrev

 

[Andrew McGregor]

C and D, no, don't. C, the point is that the cellos and basses are arriving in unison. D, you'll mess with the composer's voicing. A, definitely go with the low D, and B is debatable... depends partly on what happens next, partly on the overall texture.

 

[Witjas]

A - yes, no need to ask the conductor either since I believe this is common practice.

B - Possibly, you'd have to take other things into account like dynamic, orchestration and style. If your excerpt is 'piano' in a classical work than I'd play as written because bringing it down the octave will thicken the sound in a negative way, drawing attention to an otherwise incidental accompaniment. If on the other hand it's a romantic 'forte' with a big orchestration and perhaps you're making a crescendo to a low C along with the Tuba or so.. then I'd play it low.

If I am unsure, I'd discuss it with the conductor.

C, D, other variants - In general no, unless it was forte in a large orchestration (which your excerpt didn't imply, but I'll also take this as any 'non a or b' scenario where you aren't doubling the cellos) and just seemed to fit.

What the Tuba and Bassoons are doing would be of interest to me also. If for example the tuba and double bassoon are playing low, it would greatly support the case for the basses joining them.

It always comes down to dynamic, orchestration and style. If in accordance with these factors I thought it may be better to play it low, I'd either just go for it if I'm really convinced myself, otherwise I'd put the idea to the conductor and let him decide.

If I'm playing with a guest conductor I'm likely to ask or discuss these things more than if it's a regular conductor (because I know from previous discussions what he's likely to say and prefer). I'm always interested in what conductors say about these things too, so sometimes I'd just ask out of curiosity

 

[fergus currie]

In the finder on the forum it only shows, 'putting orchestral parts down...'
I was hoping for a 'putting orchestral parts down the toilet' thread, but no luck....
Damn!

 

[jacobh]

In the finder on the forum it only shows, 'putting orchestral parts down...'
I was hoping for a 'putting orchestral parts down the toilet' thread, but no luck....
Damn!

A not unrelated topic; sometimes the only way to get through a rehearsal for, e.g., the Swan of Tuonela is to do silly things with the voicing of the bass part...

Thanks for all the other replies. Seems like my thoughts on the subject are not too far of general practice.

 

[robobass]

I pretty much always transpose down if either 1. the cello part goes down, or 2. it makes the line more continuous. I've never had a conductor or principal player reprimand me for doing so, even if not the whole section was doing it. Of course, if the notes are marked pp, then play pp. I don't see that having that bottom octave in there makes the texture necessarily less transparent. I'd always drop Ex. A and B. C and D would depend on context. I have been in sections where someone was playing a low C which I felt was highly inappropriate (using their extension as an extension of something else, which I try not to do too much!). Ex. intro section of 1st Mvt. Beeth. V.

 

[PaulCannon]

Also worth checking are piano reductions made by the composer. Brahms, for example, made four-hand piano reductions to his four Symphonies. Since his bass parts never go below an E, it's traditional to take some parts down an octave if they can found in his own reduction.

Should the first note of his first symphony be a low C? The part says no, but here it is in Brahms' own handwriting: Invalid Link Removed

 

[eerbrev]

Also worth checking are piano reductions made by the composer. Brahms, for example, made four-hand piano reductions to his four Symphonies. Since his bass parts never go below an E, it's traditional to take some parts down an octave if they can found in his own reduction.

Should the first note of his first symphony be a low C? The part says no, but here it is in Brahms' own handwriting: Invalid Link Removed

At first I was like, "that's just a 'cello low c!". Then I used the magnification tool and saw that the scribble underneath is actually a Contra C! Sweet catch.

eerbrev

 

[robobass]

When I was playing with a German orchestra we all played the intro to Brahms 1 on the low C. No one talked about it, that was just how you did it. A fun thing I did which no one else picked up on was 7 & 8 before C in the second movement. Dropping it sounds so cool compared to playing as printed... I'm sure old Johannes would have given his blessing. But while I was allowed to do it, no one else followed suit.