Putting together a basic PA, need mixer help.

[JumboFriendly]

I'm in the process of starting a cover band with a couple of friends, and none of us have any type of PA. We've only had a few practices/jam sessions so far, but it's becoming clear that we're going to both continue and need some sort of PA very soon. Every band I've been in before, someone else has owned and operated the equipment, or we've had a soundman. I've used this stuff before, but never owned it or needed to buy it myself.

About us: Two guitarists, bassist, drummer, and we hope to add keys soon. We're sharing the vocals between two or three of us, max. Drummer plays e-drums, so there is no need to mic them separately. My amp has a direct out, guitarists are playing through combo amps that'll need to be mic'd.

I'm on a very tight budget at the moment. Obviously, I'll get much more bang for the buck by buying used, and I am keeping my eyes open for used deals. When I come across something that I'm curious about, I'll be sure to ask about it. If that doesn't happen (or at least soon), I'll need to get something to get us by for a while. Obviously, I don't want to buy a piece of gear and have it be useless because we've outgrown it or it's broken in a year.

With all that said, the Yamaha MG series has caught my eye. I like that they include compressors and FX. Honestly, I don't know how a lot of that stuff works, and something both simple and built-in appeals to me. I realize there are better mixers out there (along with better compressors and better FX), but I'm thinking this will help us get started making music and let me get my feet wet and learn about live sound.

Invalid Link Removed is the one I've been looking at, specifically. For what I need, is this a decent buy? Is there anything else that would work better for our purposes for around the same money?

Thanks for the help!

 

[theduke1]

I have a MG 16 rack mount and like to, but if your on a budget, check out Carvin.com they have some nice packages ata good price.

 

[Shane Carter]

If you're on a tight budget and just trying to get going, I would use CL and find a Mackie powered mixer with a pair of speakers on poles. Properly placed, you could even get by without monitors. Simplicity can be a good thing.

More than that and it can get very expensive very fast. I know from experience and the equipment is constantly evolving. All of my equipment is passive and I have over $3,000 in just one 6 space rack holding a power conditioner with lights, a driverack 260 and a couple of Crown power amps. That seems like a lot of money until you consider that a single powered line array speaker can cost twice that amount.

Add in subs, FOH speakers, monitors, mixer, power cables, mic and speaker cables, quality microphones and stands. Oh yeah, you're going to need something to haul it all in. I figure that just for the sound equipment, you could buy a new Harley bagger.

 

[seanm]

If you want to start out cheap, get the keyboard player and drummer to buy amps, then run only the vocals through the PA. You can then get away with just a couple of mains to start out.

I, personally, do not like drums/bass through the PA without subs.

I would not skip the monitors for live use. The singers have to hear themselves. But for practice/jam sessions just point the mains back at the singers.

 

[JumboFriendly]

Thanks for the responses so far. I don't think I'll need PA support for my bass rig - I've got a 4x10 at the moment and a 225w tube amp, I've played some outdoor gigs without PA support and been just fine. The drummer will almost have to have it. He's been playing through a keyboard practice amp and there's no way that will be enough for anything other than goofing off at practice. I guess he could take the triggers off his drums and convert them back to an acoustic set if he had to.

For speakers, I was thinking of going with Mackie Thumps (or similar) to start with, then as we upgrade I will just add more speakers. That way, I'll be able to pull out just what we need for most gigs, and add to it as the size increases.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, I'm just trying to figure out a mixer for the moment. I'll start adding other stuff as I need to and can afford it.

 

[modulusman]

Thanks for the responses so far. I don't think I'll need PA support for my bass rig - I've got a 4x10 at the moment and a 225w tube amp, I've played some outdoor gigs without PA support and been just fine. The drummer will almost have to have it. He's been playing through a keyboard practice amp and there's no way that will be enough for anything other than goofing off at practice. I guess he could take the triggers off his drums and convert them back to an acoustic set if he had to.

For speakers, I was thinking of going with Mackie Thumps (or similar) to start with, then as we upgrade I will just add more speakers. That way, I'll be able to pull out just what we need for most gigs, and add to it as the size increases.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, I'm just trying to figure out a mixer for the moment. I'll start adding other stuff as I need to and can afford it.

You're on the right track. That mixer should work fine but you might want to go with more channels. You might outgrow that one.

 

[geoff_in_nc]

I'm in a very similar format cover band. We've got 2x guitar, bass (me), drummer, singer. Besides the singer, the drummer and one guitarist also sing. We're using one of these owned by one guitarist:
Invalid Link Removed
I do believe we're violating the minimum impedance rules (and I've mentioned it but nobody listens) but... we're running 2 mains off one side and 2 monitors off the other. We've just recently started mic'ing the guitars and run them only thru the monitors because we had some trouble hearing each other on stage. This unit is nice in that you can mix mains & monitors separately to some extent. Don't know if thats standard on other mixers.
We've only played fairly small gigs, but so far its done very nicely for us.

 

[jswingchun]

You're on the right track. That mixer should work fine but you might want to go with more channels. You might outgrow that one.

+1, step up to the MG16 if you can handle it. I have been using one for a couple of years. It's a good board.

 

[oerk]

With all that said, the Yamaha MG series has caught my eye. I like that they include compressors and FX. Honestly, I don't know how a lot of that stuff works, and something both simple and built-in appeals to me. I realize there are better mixers out there (along with better compressors and better FX), but I'm thinking this will help us get started making music and let me get my feet wet and learn about live sound.

The MG series is fine, and the built-in compressors really help with vocals.

I, personally, do not like drums/bass through the PA without subs.

Right. I wouldn't attempt to run e-drums through a PA without subs.

...I do believe we're violating the minimum impedance rules (and I've mentioned it but nobody listens) but... we're running 2 mains off one side and 2 monitors off the other...

I have an older EMX 640. It can drive 4 ohm loads on each side, so as long as your tops and monitors are 8 ohms each, you're fine. And I agree, these are great, flexible power mixers if you're on a budget. I've had mine for over ten years without a single problem.

 

[nutdog]

Yamaha makes good stuff. But I think you will want more inputs. I've gone the powered mixer/2 mains/2 mon route and it's ok. I think the mackie 808 models will do 2 ohms so you could have 4 monitors. I've had those and the yamaha emx and either will do fine for a bar band. We added a powered sub and it really helped with the kick but the bass never sounded good through it to me.

Then we went with a yamaha like this one [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I found it on CL for $115 in the case. But again, we ran out of inputs. Then I found a mackie 1604vlzpro for $500 in mixer rack. And we use powered speakers (JBLs, $700 on CL with stands and bags).

I guess what I'm saying is look for used and you can get nicer stuff. And you can't have too many inputs. And I prefer yamaha to mackie.

If I were going to assemble a PA today, and I'm thinking about it, I would build (or have built) BFM tops and subs. Mr. Fitzmaurice is a regular on TB and his stuff looks head and shoulders above anything you could buy for the money. If you're handy you could build tops, subs and monitors for not much cash.

 

[seanm]

I also have one of the Yamaha EMX mixers; the 88S. Good usable mixer although it doesn't have all the bells and whistles that say a Mackie mixer would. But it basically has what you need. It has reverb, separate control of mains and monitors. Ok EQ. And all in one package. No compressor.

It has enough inputs for a vocals only PA. We run two vocal mics, an acoustic guitar, my bass, and have a stereo input for MP3 player in case we need to provide music between sets.

I only plug my bass in for paranoid reasons I have only needed it once when my amp was on the opposite side of the stage from the PA. We had PA problems and I had to spend a lot of time by the PA. I couldn't hear myself, so I put a little bass in the mains so I could hear. But usually the bass is connected but off.

 

[Bufalo]

I've played a lot of three-piece rock gigs with a Yamaha powered box mixer, a pair of Kustom 12" floor monitors and a pair of 12" Yamaha mains. I run vocals, guitar & snare through it, along with a weeeee little bit of kick for definition. To the guy asking about minimum impedance - as long as the monitors and mains you have are all 8 Ohm each, you're fine. Be cognizant of EQ'ing some of the low end out of most of the signals, and you will give yourself a enough headroom to create a lot of volume for any sized bar where you're bringing your own PA.

If I had a drummer who had an electric kit, I'd want to add at least one powered sub to the mix for most bar gigs. The nice thing is that the Yammy mixers have dedicated line outs for both the Main and Monitor channels, so you can expand beyond the internal power amp's limits.

 

[TimmyP]

Get a used Allen & Heath MixWiz. Much better channel EQ, more auxes, easier=cheaper to fix (owing to individual PCB construction). As low as $400, depending on which version (there are 3).

 

[JumboFriendly]

I'm again thankful for your responses thus far. I've taken the advice of a few posts, and started looking at something with a few more inputs. When I looked at the Yamaha MG166, I noticed that although it's got 10 XLR inputs, there are only 6 channels with compression. I'm wondering if that will be enough, or if I will still have to end up running an external effects/EQ/compressor in the future. If so, I might as well get a mixer that doesn't have those things as built-ins.

So, it looks like now I'm comparing the MG166 series vs the Allen + Heath ZED14. They're similarly priced and I've read a bunch of good reviews of each of them online. Can anyone offer any advice on that decision or help 'sell' me on either of them?

@ TimmyP: I've looked at the Mix Wizards and absolutely love them. I'm trying to keep an eye out for a used one that's in my budget. If I'm able to, no doubt that will be what I end up going with. Can you offer any insight as to the differences in the three models or if any are better than others?

I'm trying to balance my need for something relatively inexpensive with the increasing need for me to actually have it in-hand. My time is somewhat limited to try to find used deals; like I mentioned earlier - if I'm able to find something used I will go that route as I know my money will be much better spent. The purpose of this thread is to help me figure out what to do if that used deal doesn't come along before I have to make a decision, a worst-case scenario or 'Plan B'.

 

[tonybassman]

I'm in a very similar format cover band. We've got 2x guitar, bass (me), drummer, singer. Besides the singer, the drummer and one guitarist also sing. We're using one of these owned by one guitarist:
Invalid Link Removed
I do believe we're violating the minimum impedance rules (and I've mentioned it but nobody listens) but... we're running 2 mains off one side and 2 monitors off the other. We've just recently started mic'ing the guitars and run them only thru the monitors because we had some trouble hearing each other on stage. This unit is nice in that you can mix mains & monitors separately to some extent. Don't know if thats standard on other mixers.
We've only played fairly small gigs, but so far its done very nicely for us.

This is a great option, we use one and you are not violating the impedance rule if your cabs are all 8 ohms each. it can go to 4 ohms (daisy chain two 8 ohm cabs) on each channel.

It has 8 XLR which is enough for most small bands. And you can grow the system easy.

Here is what we do:

Small gigs:

Two 8 ohm cabs on each channel. 12" monitors and 15" mains. Vocals only. All instruments use their amps. Sometimes we mic the kick drum in the main mix.

Large gigs:

Monitors - two 8 ohm 12" cabs for monitors; vocals only. We power the monitors with the internal mixer monitor amp.

Mains - We run main outs (line signal on the front of the mixer) to a crossover, power amps, and then to 15 inch tops and 18 inch subs. The internal main amp of the mixer is not used.

 

[modulusman]

This is a great option, we use one and you are not violating the impedance rule if your cabs are all 8 ohms each. it can go to 4 ohms (daisy chain two 8 ohm cabs) on each channel.

It has 8 XLR which is enough for most small bands. And you can grow the system easy.

Here is what we do:

Small gigs:

Two 8 ohm cabs on each channel. 12" monitors and 15" mains. Vocals only. All instruments use their amps. Sometimes we mic the kick drum in the main mix.

Large gigs:

Monitors - two 8 ohm 12" cabs for monitors; vocals only. We power the monitors with the internal mixer monitor amp.

Mains - We run main outs (line signal on the front of the mixer) to a crossover, power amps, and then to 15 inch tops and 18 inch subs. The internal main amp of the mixer is not used.

Until you need more than 8 channels. The OP had the right idea get an UNPOWERED mixer.

 

[Shane Carter]

OP said he was on a very tight budget and wanted something they won't outgrow.

This may be a great mixer, but there is no room for growth with 6 XLR's. Even with this mixer, Thumps and stands, he's over $1,000.

I would at least try to find a used mixer with at least 12 channels, 16 would be even better. If your band mates won't contribute to the pa, make sure you at least get a larger percentage of the gig revenue.

 

[seanm]

If you are on a tight budget, but used. Yes, you may outgrow a simple powered mixer, but if you bought used you should be able to sell it for what you bought it for. A good powered mixer gets you up and running fast.

And you may not outgrow it. If all you ever need the PA for is small bars, you might never need more than 6 or 8 XLR. At least in our case, any of the larger venues have a PA. The guys I am with only needed a 3 mono, 1 stereo (or 2 mono) mixer in the 80s. We only need that today.

That said, if I could get my hands on a used MixWizard or good used Mackie I would do it. But I don't need it.

 

[Bufalo]

What I'm not getting is how do you outgrow it? Unless you're continuously adding band members? Being realistic here - If you're getting to the point where you're miking a full kit, then you're at the stage where you're probably not providing your own PA anyway. I've had the thought many times that "man, I'm going to need a bunch more equipment and bigger this and bigger that... someday" and then I realize that those gigs are in spots that have house sound of that caliber already, or that I can tell the organizer to call a local sound company and provide something big enough. And yes, everyone has that option, even if you're the gig organizer.

10 XLR inputs take care of a 4 piece band pretty easily: 4 vocals if you all sing, 2 guitar mics, kick, snare, bass if needed and you still have one left if you need to mic something else. Put the vocals, kick and bass on the compressor channels, and away you go.

 

[modulusman]

What I'm not getting is how do you outgrow it? Unless you're continuously adding band members? Being realistic here - If you're getting to the point where you're miking a full kit, then you're at the stage where you're probably not providing your own PA anyway. I've had the thought many times that "man, I'm going to need a bunch more equipment and bigger this and bigger that... someday" and then I realize that those gigs are in spots that have house sound of that caliber already, or that I can tell the organizer to call a local sound company and provide something big enough. And yes, everyone has that option, even if you're the gig organizer.

10 XLR inputs take care of a 4 piece band pretty easily: 4 vocals if you all sing, 2 guitar mics, kick, snare, bass if needed and you still have one left if you need to mic something else. Put the vocals, kick and bass on the compressor channels, and away you go.

What about the next band you're in? Maybe you have 6 people and need more than 12 inputs. If you have a 16 channel mixer you would be fine for just about any gig. Since the OP is just starting to buy PA gear he might want to get more channels so he doesn't need to replace his mixer in the future. BTW I'm in 4 piece band and we use 16 channels on some of our bigger gigs.