Q: Pickup Filter pres with pedals

[Ibanezer83]

Hey guys, I'm planning on loading my BS/ds Serek with a Jtex distiller! But I have concerns...

I'm just wondering if the +3db gain it adds, plus the potential 12db peak on top of that will just blow my pedals into constant overdrive.

If you have any experience with filter pres into pedalboards, I'd like to hear about your take/experience. Thanks!

 

[adje]

Not familiar with the exact Jtex implementation, but the 12 dB peak boost should be for a pretty narrow frequency band around the cut-off frequency, way above the fundamental (unless you can tune the filters extremely low) where generally you're already substantially down in dB's from the 1st and 2nd harmonics. That doesn't mean it can't overdrive your pedals, but it's not a full-range signal boost.

 

[Jerry Catanescu]

As my distinguished colleague George Massenburg always tells his students, "if it's too loud, turn it down". The volume pot is your friend

Edit: if you really must lose the minimum 3dB boost, you can place a ~5kOhm resistor between the Distiller's output and ground. The lower the value, the more dB you lose. Anything down to almost a dead short is fine with the Distiller (it already has a 2.7k resistor in series with the output).

 

[ctmullins]

And don’t forget that the Distiller comes with a three-position switch that lets you choose how much boost (resonance) is applied - zero, 12dB, or something in between.

And yes, the volume knob is there for a reason.

 

[Passinwind]

Hey guys, I'm planning on loading my BS/ds Serek with a Jtex distiller! But I have concerns...

I'm just wondering if the +3db gain it adds, plus the potential 12db peak on top of that will just blow my pedals into constant overdrive.

If you have any experience with filter pres into pedalboards, I'd like to hear about your take/experience. Thanks!

I'd be more concerned with whether the Bisonics or Dark Stars are too hot for your pedals just on their own. Are they?

 

[Ibanezer83]

I'd be more concerned with whether the Bisonics or Dark Stars are too hot for your pedals just on their own. Are they?

Yknow I was concerned about them when I put my order in and waited for the bass... but I dont have any issues. Then a gain I am using parallel compression... I might have to imploy that resistor though. Dont need any more output!

 

[Passinwind]

Yknow I was concerned about them when I put my order in and waited for the bass... but I dont have any issues. Then a gain I am using parallel compression... I might have to imploy that resistor though. Dont need any more output!

On my newer pedals I've gone with an adjustable gain leveling circuit to give greater compatibilty with active or hot passive instruments. I've seen Dark Stars require similar measures in some cases, but since the Distiller is based on an Alembic circuit I wouldn't expect that to hold here, in terms of what happens in the bass itself. Gain staging with multiple pedals is a whole other thing though!

 

[Ibanezer83]

On my newer pedals I've gone with an adjustable gain leveling circuit to give greater compatibilty with active or hot passive instruments. I've seen Dark Stars require similar measures in some cases, but since the Distiller is based on an Alembic circuit I wouldn't expect that to hold here, in terms of what happens in the bass itself. Gain staging with multiple pedals is a whole other thing though!

That is a brilliant decision! For years ive felt like as long as it is not too obtrusive ,every lower voltage circuit pedal should incorporate a little internal trimmer/circuit for Active instruments.

I seen several post involving your various electronic endeavors but havent ever seemed any out..

Do you just do random runs of personal projects that you sell or do you have a shop somewhere online to check out your goods?

 

[Passinwind]

That is a brilliant decision! For years ive felt like as long as it is not too obtrusive ,every lower voltage circuit pedal should incorporate a little internal trimmer/circuit for Active instruments.

I seen several post involving your various electronic endeavors but havent ever seemed any out..

Do you just do random runs of personal projects that you sell or do you have a shop somewhere online to check out your goods?

These days my main thing is developing and presenting open source designs for DIY builders. I have a few luthier clients and occasionally sell locally within my circle of musician friends, and very rarely to Interweb friends. But if you ever see something you just have to have, feel free to PM me, you never know!

I do use internal trimpots when appropriate, but the gain leveler has been on a top mounted pot in the builds I’ve used it in so far. That way it can be used to compensate for tone control boost or cut, and/or to optimize headroom in the filter section. Not too different than applying makeup gain in a compressor, for example.

 

[sunbeast]

Hey guys, I'm planning on loading my BS/ds Serek with a Jtex distiller! But I have concerns...

I'm just wondering if the +3db gain it adds, plus the potential 12db peak on top of that will just blow my pedals into constant overdrive.

If you have any experience with filter pres into pedalboards, I'd like to hear about your take/experience. Thanks!

I’ve had experience with several filter pres, and in general I find them to add less problematic boost at most settings than typical EQ preamps (particularly if you are one to ever boost low-mids or bass on a typical pre). I do like dialing in the cutoff frequency specifically as a way to hit drive circuits nicely at times (that peak can make for really cool attack boosts with some drive circuits). That said, one of the main benefits of an active preamp is that you can add a master volume control after the preamp to allow attenuation without changing the tone (something not possible with passive electronics). Just add a 25Kohm volume control after the preamp in your bass and you’ll be able to adjust to any settings on the fly. The only downside to that is if you want to add a passive option on the bass then the value of the active volume would be too small to work properly.

 

[ctmullins]

The only downside to that is if you want to add a passive option on the bass then the value of the active volume would be too small to work properly.

That’s not really a “problem” if you adjust your approach.

For me, I like the active tone so much that I never choose passive over active. But I have done active/passive switches on some of my instruments purely as a failsafe. For this I use the 25kOhm volume control last in the chain (love that), with a push/pull that bypasses everything, sending one pickup (usually the neck pickup) straight to the output jack. If my battery dies mid-song, I pull the switch and vary tone/volume using technique.

It’s happened to me exactly once.

 

[Jerry Catanescu]

"If my battery dies mid-song"

That would never happen if active bass makers would just add a stupid little low battery indicator. I have one on all my basses. Stopped selling them since nobody buys them even though they are cheap. Would you buy a phone that lacks one?

 

[sunbeast]

That’s not really a “problem” if you adjust your approach.

For me, I like the active tone so much that I never choose passive over active. But I have done active/passive switches on some of my instruments purely as a failsafe. For this I use the 25kOhm volume control last in the chain (love that), with a push/pull that bypasses everything, sending one pickup (usually the neck pickup) straight to the output jack. If my battery dies mid-song, I pull the switch and vary tone/volume using technique.

It’s happened to me exactly once.

True! I rarely use volume controls on any of my passives except for blending purposes on dual pickup instruments so the active volume works perfectly fine for me, but for some folks not having a volume control is a no-go so worth mentioning. The vast majority of active preamps are sent with passive value volume controls meant to go before the preamp, I assume specifically for those types of folks that absolutely “need” volume control in both active and passive modes- for me a volume control that changes my tone when used is basically worthless (unless it is a particular quirk I take advantage of, for instance using treble-bleed circuits to get thinner tone when turning down on my guitars!)

 

[Jerry Catanescu]

The vast majority of active preamps are sent with passive value volume controls meant to go before the preamp, I assume specifically for those types of folks that absolutely “need” volume control in both active and passive modes- for me a volume control that changes my tone when used is basically worthless

Not only do they change the tone, a high value pot also raises your noise floor (hiss) as you lower the volume, unless you back it all the way down. This is most noticeable on passive guitars with heavy gain, and it's due to the significant resistance added in series with the pickup output when the volume is not all the way up.

When the passive volume is all the way up, the pickup's lower impedance shorts the pot's thermal noise to ground, so you only hear the pickup's own noise. With the volume all the way down, the output is shorted (assuming it comes from the wiper, not off the pot's top, like in dual volume passsive basses), so no noise. Anything in between adds avoidable noise.

Speaking of dual passive volume (or blend!) pots: they really change your tone as you back them up, since the pickups go into their wipers, not the tops. A 250k audio taper (10% log) pot at 12 o'clock is a 25k load across your pickup!

 

[sunbeast]

Not only do they change the tone, a high value pot also raises your noise floor (hiss) as you lower the volume, unless you back it all the way down. This is most noticeable on passive guitars with heavy gain, and it's due to the significant resistance added in series with the pickup output when the volume is not all the way up.

When the passive volume is all the way up, the pickup's lower impedance shorts the pot's thermal noise to ground, so you only hear the pickup's own noise. With the volume all the way down, the output is shorted (assuming it comes from the wiper, not off the pot's top, like in dual volume passsive basses), so no noise. Anything in between adds avoidable noise.

Speaking of dual passive volume (or blend!) pots: they really change your tone as you back them up, since the pickups go into their wipers, not the tops. A 250k audio taper (10% log) pot at 12 o'clock is a 25k load across your pickup!

True about the passive blending too, but there are tones I really like in both my Rickenbacker and Jazz basses that are a result of that imperfection. I do use active blends on other instruments and definitely prefer them in most cases (they actually make a PJ bass work well with a blend for one!), but have tried them in both a Rickenbacker and J-Bass and felt like I lost something that is certainly a result of that passive loading. I always use 500K dual volumes for passive blending as I prefer the tone and sweep, but yeah no doubt it is an imperfect method

 

[Jerry Catanescu]

Sometimes, what makes an instrument/effect/preamp/<anything> imperfect or quirky is precisely what people like about it. Like the harmonics added by tube amps, vinyl crackle, even tape hiss...

 

[Ibanezer83]

Sometimes, what makes an instrument/effect/preamp/<anything> imperfect or quirky is precisely what people like about it. Like the harmonics added by tube amps, vinyl crackle, even tape hiss...

For sure! That's why some of the coolest gear is old , oddball , and idiosyncratic .

Theres an Eno interview wherein he expresses that his problem with synthesizers is that they lack the inherent imperfections of hand built analog instruments.

 

[Ibanezer83]

True about the passive blending too, but there are tones I really like in both my Rickenbacker and Jazz basses that are a result of that imperfection. I do use active blends on other instruments and definitely prefer them in most cases (they actually make a PJ bass work well with a blend for one!), but have tried them in both a Rickenbacker and J-Bass and felt like I lost something that is certainly a result of that passive loading. I always use 500K dual volumes for passive blending as I prefer the tone and sweep, but yeah no doubt it is an imperfect method

So in my case, with a bass setup like a ricky with BS/DS pups, a 500k blend pot might actually be ok using the Distiller?

I would then wire it 500k Blend to Distiller to 25kohm Volume to output Jack?

 

[Jerry Catanescu]

So in my case, with a bass setup like a ricky with BS/DS pups, a 500k blend pot might actually be ok using the Distiller?

I would then wire it 500k Blend to Distiller to 25kohm Volume to output Jack?

Yes, this would work fine.

 

[Drucocu]

Hey guys, I'm planning on loading my BS/ds Serek with a Jtex distiller! But I have concerns...

I'm just wondering if the +3db gain it adds, plus the potential 12db peak on top of that will just blow my pedals into constant overdrive.

If you have any experience with filter pres into pedalboards, I'd like to hear about your take/experience. Thanks!

Did you ever finalize your project? Because I will do the exact same thing on my Serek Midwestern, just ordered the parts today. Jerry is a joy to work with! Thanks @Jerry Catanescu!