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Question about C Major Scale Triad

bmb73

bmb73

Aug 7, 2010
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#1
So, the I V IV are major, ii vi, and vi are minor. The vii is diminished(minor also, correct?). Why is the augmented triad not included in this scale?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure the answer is self-explanatory but the help is much appreciated...
 
#3
Because you are starting with a scale that has no alterations.
You take the scale and make the triads from it,and that is what's coming up.
Is not that something should be "included" or implied.
In any case,you can alter a note of the C major scale (which won;t be named only C major anymore) to fulfill your request.
 
#4
bmb73 said:
So, the I V IV are major, ii vi, and vi are minor. The vii is diminished(minor also, correct?). Why is the augmented triad not included in this scale?

Thanks in advance, I'm sure the answer is self-explanatory but the help is much appreciated...
Click to expand...

Good question. How do the chords get into the key? Answer, they use the notes of the scale. The C major scale does not make any augmented chord or + 5 chords.

Lets take this one step more and look at how the chords get into any key.


Code: 
C Major scale – notes and chords
Note	 ScaleTone 	Chord	spelling	        function
C		1	Cmaj 7	CEGB R-3-5-7 		I	(tonic)
D		2	Dmin 7	DFAC R-b3-5-b7		ii
E		3	Emin 7	EGBD R-b3-5-b7		iii
F		4	Fmaj 7	FACE R-3-5-7		IV	(subdominant)
G		5	G7	GBDF R-3-5-b7		V	(dominant)
A		6	Amin 7	ACEG R-b3-5-b7		iv	
B		7	Bmin7b5	BDFA R-b3-b5-b7		viidim  (1/2 diminished)
Why is the D chord a Dm7?  Answer. Your stack has the DFAC notes and when 
you compare those to the D major scale the D major scale has a F# and a C# 
so in your stack you flatted the 3 and 7 and in doing got a spelling of R-b3-5-b7 
and that spelling makes a minor seven chord.
Take the notes of the scale and stack them in 3rds - use every other one and you get the chords made from that scale. Notice the chord spelling - R-3-5-7, or R-b3-5-b7, that's kinda important for a bassists - those are the notes that can be used in our bass line. See a C7 chord and know that R-3-5-b7 will work in our bass line. Now the song may only allow you room for the R or the R-5, but, if you have room that 3 and b7 will fit nicely.

Learn how to stack scale notes in 3rds and you will be able to know what chords are in any key. For grins stack the natural minor scale Am. It's notes are A, B, C, D, E, F, G see what chords you get. That fish thing.

Have fun.
 
#6
Yes, learning how things work- e.g. stacking thirds to get chords is vital. Instead of merely knowing THAT I, IV, and V are major triads, that ii, iii, and vi are minor triads and that vii is a diminished triad, if you instead learn HOW and WHY, then you'll always be able to figure out for yourself the WHAT.

Here's how I teach the stacked thirds. But YOU gotta do the work!


Write out the C major scale once (I'm serious, get a pencil and some paper and write it out- leave yourself plenty of room to write ABOVE it.

C D E F G A B C

Then write it again, only start with the third note (and no, it's NOT about modes!!!).

E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

... and again....
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Those are the triads in the key of C. You took a note, went up two notes, and another two notes. Analyze those three-note chords and you'll see that the first, fourth, and fifth stacks are major chords (A major third with a minor third on top- as C to E is major and E to G is minor), that the second, third, and sixth stacks are minor triads, and the seventh one is a diminished triad.

Now to be complete (and I believe understanding the 7th chords is fundamental to understanding how basic harmony works!) add one more line with the next set of thirds...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Now you have C E G B stack- that's a major 7th. Same intervals for the one starting on F. But see how the fifth stack is different? Instead of being Major/minor/major thirds (e.g. C to E is major, E to G is minor, and G to B is major), it's a major/minor/minor- that minor third on top of the major triad changes the chord totally. That's the dominant 7 chord and its sound pulls your ear to something other than itself. It sounds unsettled and needs to resolve.

See how the second stack (D F A C) is a minor7? Same relationship between notes on the A stack (A C E G). Those are minor 7th chords- minor/major/minor as D to F is a minor third, F to A is major, and A to C is minor.

Now let's look at that seventh stack in there. It's different from any of the others because it's got a minor third (B to D), then ANOTHER minor third (D to F) and then a MAJOR third in F to A. That's why the 7th chord built on the seventh tone of the diatonic major scale is NOT a diminished chord. It's a minor 7 flat 5 (m7b5) or a half-diminished chord. A full diminished chord is all minor thirds so a Bdim is B D F Ab, not B D F A.

What you want to see to answer your original question, and as very clearly outlined by Malcom again, is that all the notes in those chords come from the C major scale.

John
 
#7
JTE said:
Yes, learning how things work- e.g. stacking thirds to get chords is vital. Instead of merely knowing THAT I, IV, and V are major triads, that ii, iii, and vi are minor triads and that vii is a diminished triad, if you instead learn HOW and WHY, then you'll always be able to figure out for yourself the WHAT.

Here's how I teach the stacked thirds. But YOU gotta do the work!


Write out the C major scale once (I'm serious, get a pencil and some paper and write it out- leave yourself plenty of room to write ABOVE it.

C D E F G A B C

Then write it again, only start with the third note (and no, it's NOT about modes!!!).

E F G A B C A B
C D E F G A B C

... and again....
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C A B
C D E F G A B C

Those are the triads in the key of C. You took a note, went up two notes, and another two notes. Analyze those three-note chords and you'll see that the first, fourth, and fifth stacks are major chords (A major third with a minor third on top- as C to E is major and E to G is minor), that the second, third, and sixth stacks are minor triads, and the seventh one is a diminished triad.

Now to be complete (and I believe understanding the 7th chords is fundamental to understanding how basic harmony works!) add one more line with the next set of thirds...
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C A B
C D E F G A B C

Now you have C E G B stack- that's a major 7th. Same intervals for the one starting on F. But see how the fifth stack is different? Instead of being Major/minor/major thirds (e.g. C to E is major, E to G is minor, and G to B is major), it's a major/minor/minor- that minor third on top of the major triad changes the chord totally. That's the dominant 7 chord and its sound pulls your ear to something other than itself. It sounds unsettled and needs to resolve.

See how the second stack (D F A C) is a minor7? Same relationship between notes on the A stack (A C E G). Those are minor 7th chords- minor/major/minor as D to F is a minor third, F to A is major, and A to C is minor.

Now let's look at that seventh stack in there. It's different from any of the others because it's got a minor third (B to D), then ANOTHER minor third (D to F) and then a MAJOR third in F to A. That's why the 7th chord built on the seventh tone of the diatonic major scale is NOT a diminished chord. It's a minor 7 flat 5 (m7b5) or a half-diminished chord. A full diminished chord is all minor thirds so a Bdim is B D F Ab, not B D F A.

What you want to see to answer your original question, and as very clearly outlined by Malcom again, is that all the notes in those chords come from the C major scale.

John
Click to expand...

Works great, thanks for taking the time to write it out.. (Not to nitpick but looks like there is a typo as far as the 3rd in the 7th and 8th) Writing it out really helped to cement it.

Great forum, thanks again for all the help.
 
#13
Basshoofd said:
The vii is half diminished, not diminished. It's also known as 'minor seventh flat five' or m7b5. And you're correct, it's technically in the minor family.

The augmented triad simply doesn't exist in a major scale. Just like a diminished triad doesn't exist in it. A scale consist of certain intervals, and those intervals make up what triads are available. A major scale only has major, minor, seventh and half diminished triads.
Click to expand...


The vii, as a triad, IS diminished (BDF). Half-diminished refers to a four-note chord which contains a root, b3, b5, and b7 (as in BDFA).
 
#14
Basshoofd said:
The vii is half diminished, not diminished. It's also known as 'minor seventh flat five' or m7b5. And you're correct, it's technically in the minor family.

The augmented triad simply doesn't exist in a major scale. Just like a diminished triad doesn't exist in it. A scale consist of certain intervals, and those intervals make up what triads are available. A major scale only has major, minor, seventh and half diminished triads.
Click to expand...

Every statement in this post is wrong. Disregard.
 
#16
I'll take a stab at it...let's consider the vii of C amjor : BDF

The vii is half diminished, not diminished.It's also known as 'minor seventh flat five' or m7b5.
Click to expand...

the triad BDF is diminished, the 4 note version of the chord, BDFA, is a m7b5, aka half diminished.

And you're correct, it's technically in the minor family.
Click to expand...
m7b5 yes, diminished triad no.

The augmented triad simply doesn't exist in a major scale.Just like a diminished triad doesn't exist in it. A scale consist of certain intervals, and those intervals make up what triads are available.
Click to expand...

Patently false. C major contains BDF: a diminished triad.

A major scale only has major, minor, seventh and half diminished triads.
Click to expand...

there is no such thing as " Half diminished triad."
half-diminished chords must have a flat 7th.
(instead of the double flatted, diminished 7th of a full dim7 chord. -hence 'half diminished')

---------------------------------------

What the post is confused on is the fucntional difference between a simple diminished triad and a minor7b5 chord as applied to chord progressions and jazz improv. The common jazz wisdom is that the m7b5 is not functionally used as a dimished chord , but as the ii in a minor ii- V7-i jazz progression. Thus the misguided instance that the vii is "not diminished"
 
#17
mambo4 said:
I'll take a stab at it...let's consider the vii of C amjor : BDF



the triad BDF is diminished, the 4 note version of the chord, BDFA, is a m7b5, aka half diminished.


m7b5 yes, diminished triad no.



Patently false. C major contains BDF: a diminished triad.



there is no such thing as " Half diminished triad."
half-diminished chords must have a flat 7th.
(instead of the double flatted, diminished 7th of a full dim7 chord. -hence 'half diminished')

---------------------------------------

What the post is confused on is the fucntional difference between a simple diminished triad and a minor7b5 chord as applied to chord progressions and jazz improv. The common jazz wisdom is that the m7b5 is not functionally used as a dimished chord , but as the ii in a minor ii- V7-i jazz progression. Thus the misguided instance that the vii is "not diminished"
Click to expand...

I see. Well done. Thanks. :)
 

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