Question about pedals..

[One_Dude]

I am a long time bass player, but a newbie to pedals. I have always preferred to use one of my bass amps instead of plugging directly into the PA. My current band wants everything plugged in to the mixer. I usually do not have a problem with this, but now and then, at some venues I can barely hear my bass. Because we typically play in small spaces we don't use monitors, which means we must rely on hearing the FOH signal.

Our mixer has XRL and 1/4 inch inputs for each channel, and I plug my bass in to one of the 1/4 inch jacks. At our last play date, a much larger space than we usually play, we could not get what to me was a good bass level without causing a loud growl in the FOH speakers. It didn't sound like feedback because of the low frequency, but was probably affected by the large hard room space.

So my question is this; what would be the benefit of using a DI box between my bass and the mixer? And is that arrangement just doing the same thing that the 1/4 inch input on the board is already doing?

I look forward to your responses; thanks in advance.

Thump on,

One_Dude

 

[Bassmike62]

You'll certainly get answers here, but I'm thinking you might get more feedback in the effects forum

https://www.talkbass.com/forums/effects-bg.36/

 

[Sharko]

Wait, from your description it sounds like you’re plugging your instrument cable directly into the mixer?

 

[klattman]

If you are going straight into a mixer, with the dynamic range of just the bass, they’ll be peaking a lot and have to turn you down or up too much.

Something to condition the signal ( a DI box) will help. Lots of options.

Also the in ear mix should NOT be the same as the FOH. (The PA probably has active subwoofers so using the same signal means plenty of lows from the subs so they back it off in the mix) There should be some capability to customize the IEM.

 

[Dlew919]

I suggest you get a small multi fix like the zoom or a boss. You can set them to model your favourite amp and then you can experiment with things like compression which when used properly can enhance your playing. But try not to plug directly into the pa. A cheap DI will save you many headaches and your sound guy will hate you a little less than the rest of the band.

 

[HelpImaRock]

Easiest thing to do is get a preamp pedal that sounds like your amp. What amp do you have?

 

[beaglesandbass]

If i’m reading this correctly, you are plugging your bass directly into the mixer and not into a preamp or di first? That’s problem one. You need something to amplify your signal before it goes to the PA. If your amp has an XLR out, there’s no reason you can’t use the amp for stage volume and then from the amp to the mixer for house volume. This is very common.

Does your band’s PA have subs? If not, that’s problem two. You’re not going to get good usable bass tone, especially that you can hear from behind the tops. You guys need subs, it’ll benefit the band and audience.

Any decent preamp is going to have an XLR out to go to FOH. Just gotta find one you like as they all have different tones and options.

 

[Jeff Elkins]

If you are going straight into a mixer, with the dynamic range of just the bass, they’ll be peaking a lot and have to turn you down or up too much.

Something to condition the signal ( a DI box) will help. Lots of options.

Also the in ear mix should NOT be the same as the FOH. (The PA probably has active subwoofers so using the same signal means plenty of lows from the subs so they back it off in the mix) There should be some capability to customize the IEM.

I don't think the band is using in-ears.

Because we typically play in small spaces we don't use monitors, which means we must rely on hearing the FOH signal.

I really would not like this situation.

OP, you need more than just a DI. Yes, some will condition your signal and reduce the FOH system overdrive. But not hearing yourself and/or the band is a much bigger issue.

What are they trying to solve by having you go straight to the mixer? Someone wants to control everyone else's levels (and tone)? The stages you play are tiny and they think this is a way to reduce footprint?

I'm a fan of amp-less stages as long as I have control of my monitor mix, which means a good monitor system, in-ears or otherwise. In that setup, a decent preamp with an XLR out (or preamp+DI) are a fine solution. The preamp so you can tweak your sound for yourself and the room. Lots of other things I'd recommend in addition, but that seems kind of the minimum.

If there wasn't a good monitor system, I'd insist on bringing an amp onstage--even a small one--so that I could monitor my own sound, at least.

 

[pbass2]

If there wasn't a good monitor system, I'd insist on bringing an amp onstage--even a small one--so that I could monitor my own sound, at least.

This. I see too many bands these days trying to force am amp-less scenario when everything isn't dialed for it. You often end up fighting it and not playing your best as a band or individual player. Bring a small combo if need be to hear yourself (and the drummer might want it too). Guitarists should do this too. Everyone is so gung-ho on going amp-less these days but I can't count how many times I've gigged where the guitarist is amp-less, monitoring is sketchy, there's live(acoustic) drums, and no one can hear the guitar except the audience. It sucks.

 

[Wasnex]

Because we typically play in small spaces we don't use monitors, which means we must rely on hearing the FOH signal.

This is not a very effective way to monitor.

1. The mains are normally in front of the musicians and aimed at the audience. The only direct sound you will hear coming from the speaker is from about 200hz down. The higher frequencies are more directional and will shoot forward. If you hear these frequencies it will be after they have bounced around the room a bit.
2. In some low volume setting, it may work to put the PA speakers behind the band.
   1. Most people prefer about 6-10dB "more me." So even if some speakers are aimed at you with a balanced mix, you probably won't hear as much bass as you want.

Ideally each player should have their own monitor and mix. A personal monitor might be an amp, a fold-back wedge, headphones, or IEMs.

...Our mixer has XRL and 1/4 inch inputs for each channel, and I plug my bass in to one of the 1/4 inch jacks...

This typically results in mismatches in both impedance and signal level.

1. The 1/4" inputs on channel strip are usually line level and balanced. Also the input impedance is typically too low for a bass. The bass is instrument level and unbalanced. There are multiple ways to address the problem:
   1. Some mixers have a few high-z, instrument level inputs. AFAIK, this feature is typically found on compact mixers. There is probably a button to switch the sensitivity and impedance of the 1/4 input.
   2. Another solution is to use a DI, line-matching transformer, or preamp with a balanced, mic-level output.
      1. An active DI will require the mixer to provide phantom power. This is not a problem for most mixers. A passive DI does not require external power.
      2. A line-matching transformer is basically a passive DI without a Thru connector or other features like a pad or ground lift. Pay attention to the sex of the connectors or you will need to buy additional adapters. The Shure A96U has the sexes you need, but is not cheap. The other line matching transformers I know of have a female XLR, and you need male.
      3. Preamps give you gain and tone controls, and possible other useful features. There is lot's of variation, so make sure the preamp you buy has the features you want and provides appropriate signal levels.
         1. I normally prefer the bass signal to go through a DI that does not apply any sort of enhancement. However if the bass player is not using an amp, a preamp will give the bassist some control at his/her fingertips. As a bassist, you need to be mindful that any adjustments you make during the show will throw off every mix the bass is routed to. So you need to dial in your tone during sound check and then lock it down. If you find that must make changes during the show, try to be gentle and be mindful of the impact to others.

 

[HelpImaRock]

This. I see too many bands these days trying to force am amp-less scenario when everything isn't dialed for it. You often end up fighting it and not playing your best as a band or individual player. Bring a small combo if need be to hear yourself (and the drummer might want it too). Guitarists should do this too. Everyone is so gung-ho on going amp-less these days but I can't count how many times I've gigged where the guitarist is amp-less, monitoring is sketchy, there's live(acoustic) drums, and no one can hear the guitar except the audience. It sucks.

I've played some open mics on bass with a small pedalboard and it has not been ideal. You plug in and there's two speakers facing the audience and no monitors. This is not how to hear yourself. I'm continually told how great I sound but it's a chore.

 

[Ritter667]

Run!

And don't look back!

 

[Podgorny]

Hi. Professional recording engineer here. Depending on the mixer in question (and whether its 1/4" inputs are made for instrument-level input), a DI box will not fix your problem. The purpose of a DI is to convert a high-impedance unbalanced signal (which is susceptible to signal-degradation on long cable runs, as well as RF noise) into a balanced low-impedance signal (which can be run long distances with little degradation, and minimal noise in the signal). If your cable is less than 50' long and you're not playing under a radio transmitter, you'll probably not notice much difference. Unless the mixer in question is looking for a line-level input. In any case, having a high-quality transformer-balanced DI WILL make a difference at some point, especially when you're dealing with venues with noisy power, so it's not a bad idea to have one.

The real issue here is that their expectation of how monitoring works is simply impractical. In order for you to be able to hear yourself well-enough to do your job, you'll have to be MUCH too loud for everyone else and front-of-house. Not to mention all of that signal bleeding into all the mics on stage (likely creating the "growl" you described). Better to have a dedicated way to listen to yourself, either as a foldback monitor near you, or as some sort of more-me system sending your signal to a pair of wireless in-ear monitors. Or, you know, just a regular old bass amp.

 

[beaglesandbass]

Really, if yall wanna ampless on stage and no wedges, you need to invest in a good IEM set up, and have someone setup it up for you, because no disrespect meant, but it doesn’t sound like things are being done the most efficient way.

 

[One_Dude]

Thanks for all the great responses. I'll try to clarify our current setup.

With regard to the monitor issue; I've been down this road before, and came to realize that our current situation is a compromise brought about by trying to lighten the load in / load out and setup time. I have tried using a small bass amp as my personal monitor and I think that can work. I can't remember if that small amp has a line out or not. I think I was plugging into the board and taking a monitor out back to my amp; this is probably not the best arrangement since the bass was still plugged directly in to the board. We have thought about IEM's but currently do not have them.

With regard to my bass amp; I have several of different sizes and output powers that I choose from based on the room sizes. However, since this band plays almost entirely small venues, I would leave the big rigs at home, and use either a Fender 25 watt, or my Line Six 75 watt. I used the Line Six at a mid-sized church for many years with success. The difference there was that the bass did not go through the PA.

It's getting late, so more info to follow tomorrow.

Thanks again for your responses,

Thump on,

One_Dude

 

[polokojo]

Several people already explained here very well the technical issues with being amp-less... I just wanted to add my two cents, that is, before you spend any money in pedals, I would consider the fact that you will never get a good sound if the PA system and stage monitors aren't designed to handle an amp-less configuration, no matter what device you plug between your bass and the mixer.

 

[HelpImaRock]

Thanks for all the great responses. I'll try to clarify our current setup.

With regard to the monitor issue; I've been down this road before, and came to realize that our current situation is a compromise brought about by trying to lighten the load in / load out and setup time. I have tried using a small bass amp as my personal monitor and I think that can work. I can't remember if that small amp has a line out or not. I think I was plugging into the board and taking a monitor out back to my amp; this is probably not the best arrangement since the bass was still plugged directly in to the board. We have thought about IEM's but currently do not have them.

With regard to my bass amp; I have several of different sizes and output powers that I choose from based on the room sizes. However, since this band plays almost entirely small venues, I would leave the big rigs at home, and use either a Fender 25 watt, or my Line Six 75 watt. I used the Line Six at a mid-sized church for many years with success. The difference there was that the bass did not go through the PA.

It's getting late, so more info to follow tomorrow.

Thanks again for your responses,

Thump on,

One_Dude

Take the line out from the amp and send that to the board.

You might also consider a preamp pedal that has a dry/parallel output. Send the effected signal to the board and the dry signal to the amp for monitoring.

 

[MtManiac]

It’s all well and fine to do this if your PA is capable of delivering bass. It sounds like it isn’t.

How many and what size speakers are used? Are they passive or powered? You all need monitors, ideally ones that can have an individualized mix, since you’ll all want to hear different things.

I recommend using your GAS money to make investments in the PA - powered subs, a digital mixer that supports individual mixes, wireless IEMs. Either that, or ignore them and bring your amp.

I remember once auditioning for a band and they told me ahead of time to not bring an amp, they have one I can use and everything except the bass goes through the PA. Well one of the PA speakers were right next to my head, and their “bass amp” was a 60 watt Ibanez. I made it through the night, but I quickly decided this was not going to work. I could not hear myself at all, all night, and was nearly deafened by the roar of everything else.

Another time, I was regularly jamming with some friends and one of them starting investing in PA gear, and wanted me to go through the board. They also jammed with another bass player friend from time to time who was “fine with going through the board.” I’ve heard them play at parties, and the other bass player was primarily a guitar player, and I don’t think he really respected his role as bass player. His bass sound was typically buried in the mix, and his timing was terrible, presumably because he couldn’t hear the drums and decided he didn’t need to. Anyway, I told my guitar player friend that I spent good money on my amp and wanted to use it, and if it’s too loud, say so. He dropped it, but it still came up here and there.

Another time, while setting up on stage and getting ready for sound check, there suddenly came a loud low frequency hum from somewhere. Singer said “you need to turn your amp down,” I said “no, I don’t, that’s not me” - “yes it is, listen to it, it’s bass” - “dude, my amp is off”. Crickets and stupefied look while he tried to figure it out. Anyway, it was a drum mic feeding back.

I find that a lot of guitar players and vocalists don’t get bass, bass amplification, total band sound, or having a balanced mix, and they’re doing their audience a disservice by trying to cut it out, lower it, EQ it away, etc.

Current guitar player does our sound and he 1) used to play bass and 2) respects my input, so we get along fine sound wise. I recommend you find people like that to spend your quality time with, and invest some more into learning about sound systems and how to use them, or else you’ll always be at the mercy of someone else.

 

[-Stingray]

It sounds like your PA has handled the bass before, but in the last scenario it couldn't based on how far the run was to your console. No matter how you go about solving that issue, you will need some type of monitoring system (preferably IEM's) to hear yourself properly. Relying on a bounce off the back wall (even in a small club) is definitely not a good way for a band to monitor it's sound, and can even cause timing issues in larger rooms.

Amp: If I were plugging straight into a PA (especially with a passive bass) I would be looking at using something like a Sansamp BDDI or VTBass DI. This will give you some control over your tone and add some fullness to your sound. It will also ensure your signal does not attenuate over long runs. These units can pretty much completely replace your amp IF you have a decent stage monitoring system.

Monitors: This will require that your board has a monitor/aux out for each band member (so each band member has their own mix). Most smaller/cheaper boards do not have this feature, so you may be looking at a board upgrade to do this correctly. If your board does have this feature, then you simply need to decide between powered floor wedges, or IEM's.

IEM's: You'll need to decide whether you want the freedom a wireless IEM provides (expensive) or be OK being tethered to a non wireless solution. Most wireless IEM's range in price from $200 to $1000 (some pro systems go much higher) per band member. Not cheap. There are some very good lower end solutions (like the Xvive), but know these operate in the public Wi-Fi spectrum and this can be problematic in metro areas. I prefer monitor systems running in the 500 mhz range, but those cost more ($800+ for a good one). A alternative cheaper way to go would be to use a non wireless system. Something like the Behringer MicoMon works very well, but you will be tethered. Might be OK for drummers, but I think it would be annoying to use for any other purpose. For beginner IEM earpieces I typically recommend KZ10 Pro's. They sound good, and at $50 are a fantastic starter IEM earpice.

Wedges: Powered wedges are still a good option. You're still mildly tethered, you'll have to be careful about feedback, they are large and bulky, and they wont sound as pristine as an IEM because your wedge will be competing with everyone else's wedge on the stage. Still it's better than relying on a bounce off the back wall.

Hope this helps.

 

[One_Dude]

Thanks again for the suggestions; here's some more info about our setup.

The PA is a Bose with the small speakers that plug in and sit on top of the subs. I think the PA is capable enough, and my best approach is to either use a small bass amp with a line out to the Yamaha MG20 board, or follow the diagram in the Yamaha manual that shows a DI between the bass and the board. Their diagram shows that a guitar can plug directly into the board, but they recommend a DI when a bass goes through the board.

I already have a DI that I have never used, so I'm going to try both the small amp and DI and go from there. We play again in three days, so I'll report back after that gig.

Thanks again for your interest and input.

Thump on,

One_Dude