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Question about theory and Black Narcissus

Duce-hands

Duce-hands

Nov 4, 2010
90
0
#1
I looking to gain further knowledge about jazz music and theory in general. I currently listening to the "standards" in the Real Book to help get a better "feel" for what is jazz music, and how to play jazz. My question is the chord progression of the song Black Narcissus. It starts w/ Ab-7 , Bb-7/Ab, Ab-7, Bb-7/Ab and from that standpoint i understand the progression but then there is a change to F#-7, G#-7/F#,F#,G#-7/F#, and finally to AM7b5,FM7b5 and finally finish with CM7b5. And I'm looking for some help in understand the change in key(if in fact there was one), how and why it works. I still a relative novice to jazz but I'm listening intently and trying to get a better grasp. Any information is helpful.
 
#2
Good aspirations! Let me share a few thoughts:

1. First of all, Black Narcissus is not a song because, by definition, songs are sung. It is a piece of music.

2. You've got some funky changes there. My version has the following sections:

instead of | Ab-7 | | Bb-7/Ab |

..........Ab pedal------|
I have | Ab-7 | Db7 |

instead of F#-7 G#-7/F#

..........Gb pedal------|
I have | Gb-7 | Cb7 |

then it closes out with : | EbMaj7(#11) | FMaj7(#11) | BbMaj7(#11) | CMaj7 | (repeat)

My version makes much more sense because the first 16 bars are just ii V's of Gb and Fb, respectively. The bit at the end is much more clearly modal than your version. Your chord of A-7(b5) shares three common notes with the EbMaj7(#11): Eb, G, and A. But in your voicing, it's either functioning as a ii chord in a minor key or as a locrian. In my version, it is a series of Lydians followed by the CMaj7.

3. Two points a) - find an easier tune to break into jazz with (by that, I mean a tune with easily dissected sections of diatonic chord changes - like All the Things you Are). and b) your changes aren't necessarily wrong (I'm not sure if I've heard this tune) because a Bb-7 does have tones in common with the Db7 in my version (Db, F, and Ab). Your version and my version are basically reharms of each other; I'm not sure which is the proper written version that Joe Henderson played and which is the reharm.
 
#4
FretlessMainly said:
Good aspirations! Let me share a few thoughts:

1. First of all, Black Narcissus is not a song because, by definition, songs are sung. It is a piece of music.

2. You've got some funky changes there. My version has the following sections:

instead of | Ab-7 | | Bb-7/Ab |

..........Ab pedal------|
I have | Ab-7 | Db7 |

instead of F#-7 G#-7/F#

..........Gb pedal------|
I have | Gb-7 | Cb7 |

then it closes out with : | EbMaj7(#11) | FMaj7(#11) | BbMaj7(#11) | CMaj7 | (repeat)

My version makes much more sense because the first 16 bars are just ii V's of Gb and Fb, respectively. The bit at the end is much more clearly modal than your version. Your chord of A-7(b5) shares three common notes with the EbMaj7(#11): Eb, G, and A. But in your voicing, it's either functioning as a ii chord in a minor key or as a locrian. In my version, it is a series of Lydians followed by the CMaj7.

3. Two points a) - find an easier tune to break into jazz with (by that, I mean a tune with easily dissected sections of diatonic chord changes - like All the Things you Are). and b) your changes aren't necessarily wrong (I'm not sure if I've heard this tune) because a Bb-7 does have tones in common with the Db7 in my version (Db, F, and Ab). Your version and my version are basically reharms of each other; I'm not sure which is the proper written version that Joe Henderson played and which is the reharm.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. The chord progress I'm using is from the Real Book, and based on your version I can have a much better understand of the progression. And true is it a musical piece as opposed of a song, my bad. I'll put your advice into practice. Can you tell me where you got your version from, bc clearly the Real book is not very accurate
 
#5
Mine came from an old bass clef Real Book - it's a Fifth Edition. I'd agree that the version I posted makes a bit more sense from a theoretical analysis standpoint, but by the mid-60s, cats like Joe Henderson, Wayne Shorter, Chick, et al. were doing some very different things in contrast to 40s/50s harmony. It's hard to tell which version is "correct," but the re-harms make sense. For example, a Db7 is the same chord as a Bb-7 except for one note: B natural vs. Bb - not an insignificant note! But from a harmonic standpoint, they both work.
 

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