Hi everyone,
First off I would like to say thank you for helping me answer this question, and solve this problem. I think I'm on the right path now to figuring out some ways to solving my pain issues, and better managing in the longhaul. I am sorry that this message is over due, it is a little crazy at work, and I have taken the time to give a response to everyone, as everyone has something unique to offer, so here it goes!
I can't answer your question, but I would try experimenting with a lower stool. Everything you mention suggests the problem is rooted in leaning over and down, and a lower stool would seem to alleviate some of that. Really, I would try experimenting with everything--lower stool, higher stool, standing--and see if anything eliminates your pain.
Hi Lee, thanks for an great response! I have tried experimenting with some stools/chairs around the house, I found that if I were leaning into the back of a chair or stool with a back I feel much more secure and less like I am going to fall. That and if I have both of my feel planted on the ground. I believe that this fear of falling actually comes from a prior experience when I first started playing, someone backed into their stand and knocked it towards my bass, in an effort to knock away the manhasset stand I fell back, the bass landed on me but it hurt like a mother! I was horrified and that's when I started really babying my basses. I have been trying what I like to call "target practice" I have a little postit note on my stand, and while I play old rep from memory I stare at the target on the note. Has it help keep my head up, yes, has it helped my pain, a little, noticeable enough that I can feel less pressure, but there is still pain, which leads me to think that there are multiple things going on!
I agree that experimenting is going to be the best solution, regardless to what we have to say. Your body is uniquely yours. What works for me (not 6'4", along with I assume a few other differences) isn't going to be the best thing for you. Your bass also factors into this. I have played instruments that I feel I need to adjust higher, lower, closer to me, farther away, on a different angle etc. because that particular instrument and I interact differently. If you have a stool that adjusts or access to a few different ones, that would be a great place to start. Try the endpin all the way in, all the way out, somewhere in the middle etc. What ends up working for you and that instrument could be significantly different than what you are doing now, or it could be just a little tweak. I went through a process with two different teachers where we spent a whole lesson on finding a posture that worked for me, and both were very different. Keep in mind that your bass playing is going to need some time to adjust as well. Chances are you might feel some discomfort in different parts of your body if you really switch things up. If this is your muscles getting used to something new, that can be a good thing. If it's just moving the pain somewhere else or adding to it, not so much.
Play some slow scales, and really focus on if you are relaxed or not, and keep adjusting until you have the least amount of tension. Play in front of a mirror so you can see anything that looks out of place, or better yet take some video from a few different angles when you feel you are getting close to your new posture, as the video will allow you to play "naturally" and examine after, instead of trying to look in the mirror and play at the same time. The video can also show you other things that could be leading to problems, one of the most common being too much extraneous motion somewhere in your body. If you initiate every down bow or accent with a head nod, shuffle your feet around because they aren't grounded, your left arm is bent at a weird angle etc. that can all lead to pain.
I would also suggest ditching the "looking down" thing. If it is indeed part of the problem, that should be reason enough to change it, but looking forward/"up" is going to serve you a lot better musically. You will be able to communicate better with the other musicians you are playing with and your audience, and it's a good habit to get into.
Finally, and the most important piece of advice I can give you: take a break if it hurts. Even/especially if you are still in school, (I can't remember) it can feel like there is a lot of pressure to play more and more and through the pain. Talk to your teacher and the administration if you have to. If they won't make allowances to help you prevent or recover from an injury, go above their heads. I had a colleague who played through the pain so much that he ended up with a severe injury, and chose to switch career paths as a result. Another was smart and listened to her doctors, took some time away from her instrument, and she is on the road home from a tour in BC right now. Which boat do you want to find yourself in?
Hi Mike, thanks for the great response. I have been trying to do a few things with the endpin in and out, however I do have limited space at the moment (small house with a small bass room), but I'm trying my best. So far with the endpin all the way in, I am feeling some tension, and some pain, however when I take it out a notch I feel a little more comfortable, but two notches and there is the worst pain i've felt yet. Tomorrow I plan on trying the video trick, Im getting my flip cam back from a friend who I lent it to, so I'll be able to see if Im twisting or something that could be causing this pain.
As for my teacher, he was the one who had me switch last September from standing to sitting, while standing I was off balance and would have issues going from high to low quickly.
I take pain very seriously, and I try to avoid taking OTC pain meds as much as possible. I do stop when I feel pain, and as I have been doing for years, I only practice for 45 minutes, take a 15 minute break, and come back for another 45 and so on, I cant imagine practicing for hours and hours with so much pain. Bass is my life and I would rather die than give it up! BTW I go to school at Crane School of Music right near Ottawa
I'll have to talk to John about it, Ive asked him before but what we did didnt really work.
Just personal experience.....I have a drum throne with a back rest. If I sit forward on it, even with my feet touching the ground I get back pain. Sitting back and actually using the back rest, with the seat a bit lower and my feet forward I get no back pain. As has been suggested, this is a very individual thing but if you are getting pain from your posture it's a reasonable bet that something about your position is not quite right. Sitting lower makes it easier to get your bowing lanes right but not so low that you can't get into the upper positions. It's all compromise. Enjoy finding the right position for you. Took me ages ( and a different bass lol) but it is definitely achievable.
Hi SeaMist, thanks for the reply. I really want to try something with a backrest/sitting back, I have a feeling that my pain comes from the insecurity of a backless stool that makes me overcompensate and lean forward. my only problem is, I need something pretty portable as the bass lockers are a good walk from the stage/orchestra rehersal rooms, and the lesson/practice rooms are a good walk in another direction. I wish there was a normal stool with a folding backrest! I'm going stool shopping this weekend so hopefully I'll be able to find something affordable and most importantly comfortable.
Agree with what Mike posted above. I accidentally found my posture on a lower stool (as Lee mentions) when I showed up for a session and a 24" stool was all that was there. For the rest, think of what your body looks like when it's in a natural position that is pain free, and try to play the bass in a way that is as much like that as possible. For me, that means not slouching in the lower back, keeping my feet at the same level (players who play a lot of arco seated may not be able to do this), and keeping my shoulders in the "down" position even when my elbows are raised. It may mean something different for you. All bodies are different, as Mike mentioned. I'm 6'2" and all arms and legs, which means I have to really watch the leverage chain for wasted energy - as martial arts training has taught me all too well, more compact bodies have more direct force connected more closely to the center of power, while longer limbs have the advantage of reach but often struggle to control it efficiently. Jason Heath has an excellent blog on different postures to play with here:
http://doublebassblog.org/2008/05/standing-versus-sitting-for-the-double-bassist.html
Hey Chris, thanks for the reply! I've checked out that page before, but I've had a little difficulty doing it. Im the kind of learner, that if I hear something I can do it or play it great, that's how I learn my music (in addition to reading), or the kind of learner that has to be moved/manipulated so I can feel what its like (I'm okay with a hands on teacher especially with technique). Having said that, Jason's page is a very valuable resource, I just have a hard time with seeing the geometry, I think it would be easier to feel it. Since I've seen your post I've been working on keeping my shoulders "down", I saw that I would sometimes tense up my shoulder on my right side, which causes all the pain in my right shoulder blade! Put a check next to that one
Now it's trying to figure out how to remedy the lower back!
Take a look at the position of your pelvis. Whether sitting or standing, a lot of people have a tendency to tuck in their pelvis, which rocks the hips backwards, which makes your back into a "C" shape, which hunches your shoulders... You get the idea. I play standing, and I remind myself all the time to bend my knees a little, stick my butt out slightly (un-tucking my pelvis) and pull my shoulders back, whether I'm playing or not. It had made a big difference in my level of playing comfort and mobility on the bass. Try this to get a sense of it:
Stand up with your feet about shoulder-width apart, of wherever they might be if you played standing.
Tuck your pelvis forward, you'll probably notice that your back wants to arch backwards, your shoulders slouch, you seem to have a small hunch and your head feels hard to control. Try to move your arms and upper body as if you're playing.
Now, bend your knees little, untuck your pelvis by sticking your butt out slightly, pull your shoulders back so that they are over your hips and get your head over your shoulders. Notice that the hunch is gone. Now, try moving your arms as if you're playing, exaggerate the posture a little if you want to. Try to act like a monkey a little. Keep your torso over your hips and move your arms as before. You might feel that your arms are much more free to move. You can recreate this position while seated, keep everything over your hips and keep your shoulders back.
Hi Jeremy, thanks for the reply. I am going to have to try this, but very carefully
I dont want to hurt myself or fall, with my luck it would happen! In all seriousness I will give this a shot, maybe by trying to get the C shape out or hunch I can help the lower back. Do you recommend any other exercises, I wonder if I am also walking with a slight C or doing other things, if I can get my posture in great shape everything will improve! Maybe a type of shoe that helps improve posture, or some kind of orthopedic stool?
If you can afford it take your bass and stool along to a physiotherapist or Alexander person and demonstrate your problems. Or a wise old owl of a bass teacher
There are quite a few extended past threads that discuss issues around seating, stool heights, pain issues.Here is a list of titles to punch into Search -
How to deal with Back Pain
Posture Question
Playing Cello Style
Different Sitting Positions
Shoulder Blade / Back Pain
Standing vs Sitting
Seated Technique
Upper Shoulder and Neck Pain
Upper Back Soreness
Neck Pain
Pain in my Right (Bowing) Arm
Stools
A Series of Stretches and Exercises
You did not say whether you are a French or German bow user. This has some importance IMO.
Cheers, DP
Hi David, thanks for the response.
I did check out some other threads, what I was having trouble with, and the reason I created the thread was so I could get a more personalized answer to the problem. I've seen some stuff here already I haven't seen anywhere else yet, or the same material worded differently so it makes much more sense.
If this helps I am a German bow user. I haven't read anything about this, would you mind explaining, maybe my approach with watching certain players is all wrong!
Without wishing to sound like I have all the answers (which I certainly dont) perhaps I can share some of the things that I have done to overcome some of my aches and pains that I have had along the way!
Part of the difficulty for us double bassist in getting comfortable is replicating the position of the bass each time. I am really envious of the guys that can just pick up their basses and play in perfect position - thats not me just yet!. My experience has been that if the end pin is at a slightly different angle to the floor or its position relative to the centre line of one's body is different each time, the fingerboard can be in a significantly different place each time , intonation can suffer and pain can start to rear its ugly head.
For me I found having a floor stud strapped to my chair to locate the end pin in a precise position each time was really helpful in having a measurable bass line to then consider what adjustments I could make to the presentation of the instrument to get it to fit my relaxed body - there are only four adjustable elements i.e. you can make the bass taller or shorter by adjusting the end pin height (obviously), 2/. you can adjust how far in front to place the end pin (to change the angle or inclination relative to the body), 3/. you can place the end pin position in contact with the ground offset to the side to subtely adjust the sideways lean of the bass - I found this last element really useful in getting my bow square on to the string and in helping my left hand in the T position , finally you can rotate the bass into your body or away. All four adjustables are interlinked and one adjustment often means that one of the others needs to change too ...but I found them really worth experimenting with.
Then theres the stool height. I found playing around with my K&M stool that when I put it as low as a chair I almost instantly got lower back pains. Other players swear by a low chair , low end pin, and both feet on the ground - it probably works 110% for them ....but not with my physicality. When I adjusted it up a couple of notches the lower back pain went away. When I took the stool too high I got pins and needles. I think its to do with the weight of the bass where it comes into contact with the body and how its weight gets absorbed adn transmitted to the ground. Everyone is different, bone lengths, hip widths , flexibility, blood circulation, ...stools are of coure 'one size fits all' ( ...and they dont of course!). Although expensive, the adjustability of the K & M stool I have found to be worth every penny. Others prefer to stand which may be the best thing to do for their physicality.
The 'best use of you' is an Alexander concept that I found really useful in exploring my physical possibilities . In particular I found it really useful to find the centre of my 'range of movement' and try to get the instrument into position to play as close to the centres of range of both arms , wrists, fingers. As an example I used to have a high end pin and play with my left hand extended back well behind my ear in first position ...not surprisingly I got shoulder pains and a stiff neck . I realised that my left arm was at the very end of its backward reach and I was having to use full muscle power to maintain it in this position. Thats an example of making the 'worst use of you' straining the muscles to work full time holding the limb at the end of their reach. I lowered the end pin and brought the bass more vertical and found that my hand came forward in front of my left eye and closer to the mid-range of its hinged movement from the elbow ( the pivot of the elbow stayed in exactly the same place). I moved on to exploring the centre position of my bowing action and rotated the bass accordingly to find the centre of movement , how far i needed to reach with my right hand to play sul pont and how high vertically with my left hand to play in first position. I still think about these adjustments and as my technique improves I play around with small changes . None of them would be possible with the floor stud as a reference point.
If some of the above is relevant and helps in anyway then I will be delighted !
Hey DoubleBassBass (if that is your real name
) thanks for the response. I'll check out some adjustable stools soon. I am going stool shopping, my problem with those is, they don't look comfortable, and they dont look very supportive, which I could imagine would be a problem. I wonder, what angle would be best for my right arm and left arm, and if I were to measure that plus inseam plus overall height, if there would be a way to determine from a scientific standpoint what the best points of leverage would be for a stool and endpin height.
I will check out some more alexander technique stuff, I don't play with the bass way behind my head, while seated the nut is right about at my hairline(which has yet to begin receding). My concern is if I drop the endpin too low I will have to lean over to play up high, and I am worried if I go to low that I'll have some bass upper bouts blocking the music.
+1 on a constant endpin marker, Alexander technique and a low stool. I would also add discussing this with your teacher (or taking a lesson with someone else for a second opinion. ) Another I do is to use a yoga block (about 6x4x4") under my left foot
Louis
Hey Louis, thanks for the reply (and for answering a multitude of other questions privately haha!) I will absolutely check out a lower stool. I want to try something around 24", I also wonder if cushioning has something to do with my back pain aswell, on my current stool it has a thick foam cushion and I feel like when I land my rear end in that I get just the hard part of the stool, might have to try a buttcradle on the new stool!
Thanks everyone for your replies, I am taking a second opinion lesson soon, and if anyone wants to give me a third I never turn down a lesson
In all seriousness thank you so much for the relies I really do appreciate it, and if there is anything else to add please let me know, every little detail counts!
