I was in a project with a songwriter a few years back: he'd create the basic song structure & vocal parts but I'd come up with the bass lines & guitar parts & percussion. We recorded with the intent to publish sell etc but the guy turned out to wear his butt as a hat & betrayed me. I'm still fond of those bass & guitar lines I created. Am I entitled to use them? I don't know if the songs ever got published copyrighted if the project ever took off or what.
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Question re: copyright
- Thread starter chuck norriss
- Start date
"...wear his butt as a hat.." That's a phrase I haven't heard before.
I'm no authority but I tend to think that the person who
created the chord progression and lyrics has the most
ownership of a song. I don't think you're in a strong position
to use those songs. However, I wouldn't hesitate to try to
adapt your bass and guitar lines to other songs.
I'm no authority but I tend to think that the person who
created the chord progression and lyrics has the most
ownership of a song. I don't think you're in a strong position
to use those songs. However, I wouldn't hesitate to try to
adapt your bass and guitar lines to other songs.
Ric5
Inactive
- Jan 29, 2008
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Chances are the songs will go nowhere and nobody will care if you use the notes you wrote ... also if you change some parts then it is your song ...
Asshat-has been used extensively here on TB.Self explanatory,but Charles is more of a gentleman than I,so there we are.Use your bass lines You created as You see fit,Charles,it should be good in every respect.
Here are the facts. Don't jump on my case if you don't like them, I'm just sayin' these are the rules of law. I don't make them up, I don't enforce them, and I don't always agree with them myself. I'm just passing them along to help the OP.
Regarding copyright: A copyright is established when a song is completed in agreement with all the authors and placed in a fixed format (CD, tape, whatever). Once that is done, parts of it can't be removed without all authors' permission.
Having said that, it's not clear if you actually contributed to the creation of the song or the production of it. You said he created the basic song structure and vocal parts which sounds like in most cases would be describing the song. Lots of guys add instruments to demos and are not considered being a co-writer even though their parts may be very catchy. I'm guessing from what you said that you weren't paid which adds to the haziness of your contribution. However, this could actually work for you given that you want to be separate. If you don't use his lyrics or chord structure or any of the things he brought to the get together then you might be able to make a case that your contribution was as a friend helping demo his work and that whatever you contributed is yours to apply elsewhere. The key, is that you can't use anything at all that he contributed and you must be able to back up your claim that you were a session player, not a co-writer. If you contributed anything at all to the structure of the song or lyrics (especially in his view) then you are a co-writer.
If the song was never placed in fixed format (recorded) then there is no copyright.
Regarding copyright: A copyright is established when a song is completed in agreement with all the authors and placed in a fixed format (CD, tape, whatever). Once that is done, parts of it can't be removed without all authors' permission.
Having said that, it's not clear if you actually contributed to the creation of the song or the production of it. You said he created the basic song structure and vocal parts which sounds like in most cases would be describing the song. Lots of guys add instruments to demos and are not considered being a co-writer even though their parts may be very catchy. I'm guessing from what you said that you weren't paid which adds to the haziness of your contribution. However, this could actually work for you given that you want to be separate. If you don't use his lyrics or chord structure or any of the things he brought to the get together then you might be able to make a case that your contribution was as a friend helping demo his work and that whatever you contributed is yours to apply elsewhere. The key, is that you can't use anything at all that he contributed and you must be able to back up your claim that you were a session player, not a co-writer. If you contributed anything at all to the structure of the song or lyrics (especially in his view) then you are a co-writer.
If the song was never placed in fixed format (recorded) then there is no copyright.
Hi.
No offense intended, but are You REALLY that good that someone would be able to link those riffs and lines with something you'll do at present or in the future? And were those riffs and lines "original" enough to be regarded as such?
Other parties than the "gentleman" with a questionable head-piece that is
.
I for one wouldn't think twice about using 'em.
Unless You're going to sell millions of copies of the tunes with those said riffs and lines in 'em for a hefty wad of cash that is. In that case everyone who You have worked with in the past will probably be over those tunes with a fine toothed comb to be able to sue you.
Regards
Sam
No offense intended, but are You REALLY that good that someone would be able to link those riffs and lines with something you'll do at present or in the future? And were those riffs and lines "original" enough to be regarded as such?
Other parties than the "gentleman" with a questionable head-piece that is
.I for one wouldn't think twice about using 'em.
Unless You're going to sell millions of copies of the tunes with those said riffs and lines in 'em for a hefty wad of cash that is. In that case everyone who You have worked with in the past will probably be over those tunes with a fine toothed comb to be able to sue you.
Regards
Sam
Thanks for the replies. And no my **** isn't so good that it needs a fence around it I just wanted clarity with this issue. I figured tb would know the answer.
- Apr 1, 2000
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Also important to note: you can't copyright a chord progression, so chord structure is not an issue.
+1
Although how the chords relate to melody can. For example, Steve Winwood was successfully sued for Roll With It which resembled Roadrunner. Only two chords but it was how the melody played along with it.
Heck, there are only 12 notes. The mathematical possibilities are not endless and some overlap is inevitable. The more songs that are written, the more difficult it is to come up with something truly unique, so a lot of it is just: did they copy the entire spirit of the song and just come up with a new set of lyrics?
- Dec 13, 1999
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The only material that can be "copyrighted" is the melody and lyrics. EVERYTHING ELSE is just an arrangement and you can't copyright that. So good news/bad news, you can use whatever bass line or guitar accompaniment. But so can anyone else.
Ed not sure about that???? Try submitting the signature riff in Jumpin jack flash or whole lotta love with different melody and lyrics and let us know how that works out for you lol. Even better Smoke on the water. It comes down to once it is recorded and copy written it is part of the song and protected. So even though 5th of Beethoven has no lyrics you won't get away with writing those first few notes without whoever owns the copy writes permission
- Dec 13, 1999
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Just offering my 2 cents... I'm no lawyer and I'm not going to piddle about who wrote more of the song etc.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. There's no question about that, the question in these situations is who wins? If the dude actually cares enough to take it to court, and there's no copy write in place, it's all about convincing a judge. That means whoever possesses the most evidence (cds with liner notes, music scores, tablature, etc etc) is going to win.
The thing is, that all takes money, and unless you have a hit on your hands, it's probably not even a real concern. So tread lightly sir, imo you're better off just writing a slightly different riff and avoiding all this crap.
Anyone can sue anyone for anything. There's no question about that, the question in these situations is who wins? If the dude actually cares enough to take it to court, and there's no copy write in place, it's all about convincing a judge. That means whoever possesses the most evidence (cds with liner notes, music scores, tablature, etc etc) is going to win.
The thing is, that all takes money, and unless you have a hit on your hands, it's probably not even a real concern. So tread lightly sir, imo you're better off just writing a slightly different riff and avoiding all this crap.
Lots of misunderstanding of copyright law in this thread! I don't have time to address everything, but to answer the OP's question:
If your contributions to the songs were significant enough to make you a co-author -- e.g., you came up with portions of the melody or lyrics -- then you and the other guy are joint owners of the copyright and can both use the song. You don't need to get each other's permission, but you do need to account to each other if you make any money from the song.
If the other guy wrote the song and you just came up with some accompaniment, you can't use the song, but you can re-use your parts in a different song, assuming your parts do not infringe his composition by copying the melody, etc.
Note that the above addresses the copyright in the songs themselves -- i.e., the compositions. There is a separate copyright in the recordings that you made. If you both contributed to creating the recording, then you are co-owners of it and either of you can use it. Again, you would need to account to each other for money you make from selling the recording. And the other guy may be entitled to additional mechanical royalties for his song if you sell copies of the recording.
If your contributions to the songs were significant enough to make you a co-author -- e.g., you came up with portions of the melody or lyrics -- then you and the other guy are joint owners of the copyright and can both use the song. You don't need to get each other's permission, but you do need to account to each other if you make any money from the song.
If the other guy wrote the song and you just came up with some accompaniment, you can't use the song, but you can re-use your parts in a different song, assuming your parts do not infringe his composition by copying the melody, etc.
Note that the above addresses the copyright in the songs themselves -- i.e., the compositions. There is a separate copyright in the recordings that you made. If you both contributed to creating the recording, then you are co-owners of it and either of you can use it. Again, you would need to account to each other for money you make from selling the recording. And the other guy may be entitled to additional mechanical royalties for his song if you sell copies of the recording.
I just want my parts for my own, different songs. I wouldn't copy his melodies anyway. I am speaking strictly of composition--bass & rhythm guitar parts. The cake. He can keep his frosting.
Thanks all.
Top_Ten said:
Just curious, but since the copyright is different for the composition and the recording, is it possible to have a copyright on a recording (and presumably make money off of said recording) even if you had no hand in writing any part?
Like if I were to help a fellow musician out by paying for his studio time, would I be entitled to a share of the (recording) copyright?
