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"I went to an AA meeting for Musicians...It was a 12 Half-Step program."
Back to the excerpt from Ed Freedland’s book, what is going on with the Ab under the G7 and F# under the Cm7?
Does that just work as a chromatic walkdown to an eventual target? I haven’t heard it, just read it, but it isn’t the sort of thing you would “think” to play.
Does that just work as a chromatic walkdown to an eventual target? I haven’t heard it, just read it, but it isn’t the sort of thing you would “think” to play.
If you use your ear, every single note in a given scale is implied by the chord being played. Thus, chords including all the extensions are just scales arranged, or stacked in 3rds. Thinking that way, and then using approach tones (which can be thought of as chromatic at times) will get you a good walking line. Also, don't change direction (walking up, or down) on the first beat of a chord. Change direction in the middle of chords and not in relation to bar lines.
- Jan 26, 2014
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- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
1) usually Dorian is the mode of choice for any min7 in jazz. Using b2 and b6 can change the color and cause clashes if not handled with care. Dorian stays out of the way of chord tones nicely, but b2 and b6 are good "upper leading tones" to 1 and 5, so they can and should be used if you resolve them correctly.
2) that depends on the feel of the song, as in, if the I is a min7 or minMaj7, and how dark or altered the chords are. No need to make alterations that aren't on the chart, especially on the head of a tune. For Latin I usually default to harmonic minor modes for ii-V-i, for modern minor jazz I think more melodic minor, for standards, funk and older jazz I think Locrian #2, Half -whole diminished.
3) go through those lines and circle each chord tone. The chromatic runs are always leading you to a chord tone on a strong beat. In the first one, it's just a couple notes at a time, in the second example, the chromatic runs are longer, sometimes going past the chord tone, and returning to it. I didn't look very closely but I didn't notice any modality per se being used there, just chord tones and chromatic passing phrases leading to another chord tone. You need to have the foresight to know how many chromatic notes it's going to take to lead you to that next chord tone. at first you can start by writing them out and playing them , after a while you can feel when the strong beats are coming and ramp up on the fly.
Thanks!!!
By "usually Dorian is the mode of choice for any min7 in jazz." you mean that because the most of the m7 chords in jazz are the II degree and in case the m7 is the IV degree (phrygian) I dont apply dorian for it?
- Jan 26, 2014
- 1,525
- 1,946
- Disclosures
- I teach lessons and perform live music in and around San Diego CA. Sometimes I even make money doing it!
First of all, I think you just typoed but the iii degree is Phrygian
This is kind of deep, so it's hard to explain with just words, but I'll try. In jazz you can often use Dorian on any minor seventh chord, obviously on the ii, but also iii, vi, even the i in a funky minor tune (e.g. Road Song by Wes Montgomery). This is for a few reasons.
1) First and foremost... it sounds jazzy. It just does. Blues scales sound bluesy, major pentatonics sound country, Dorian sounds jazzy. The tritone between the min 3 and Maj 6 is a rich sound to exploit. Flea's also been doing that for 30 years or so BTW. Never take sound for granted in any musical discussion, sound always matters, and always wins.
2) a lot of times, minor chords are implied as "ii's of something." In a iii min7-vi min7-ii min7-V7-I6, the iii chord can be felt as the ii of the ii chord, same concept as secondary dominants. This is all up for debate, that progression could be analyzed a couple different ways, you could even exploit that same progression a couple different ways in the same song depending what the soloist is doing with it, or during your own solo. I will say this… My first instinct would never be to play Phrygian and Aeolian for the iii and vi chords... because that just doesn't sound that jazzy. I would probably think Dorian for all three minor chords if we were just jamming on a looped progression. I imagine there is a loop like that already out there on YouTube, and it's not that hard to make your own, be sure to experiment on your own.
3) Dorian is a "safe" minor mode. Major sevenths and minor sixths clash with roots and 5ths, and are called "avoid tones" by some, I prefer the term "handle with care" tones. Dorian doesn't have any notes in it that clash with a minor seventh chord. Just like a major pentatonic takes any guesswork out of playing a country or Bluegrass solo, the Dorian mode takes any awkward notes out of the picture in a jazz setting. Now in a walking bassline, it's actually good to use those clashing notes once in a while, as long as you resolve them properly, but I guess you could say that about any note in jazz
I don't know that I can explain it any better in writing, I do hope that helps. I am reticent to advertise my lessons outwardly on talkbass, I'm not sure if that's within the rules and I will edit this if a mod wants me to, but if you wanted to explore this further you might want to contact me for a Skype/FaceTime lesson, or better yet in person if you're around San Diego. This goes a lot easier with sounds associated
First of all, I think you just typoed but the iii degree is Phrygian
This is kind of deep, so it's hard to explain with just words, but I'll try. In jazz you can often use Dorian on any minor seventh chord, obviously on the ii, but also iii, vi, even the i in a funky minor tune (e.g. Road Song by Wes Montgomery). This is for a few reasons.
1) First and foremost... it sounds jazzy. It just does. Blues scales sound bluesy, major pentatonics sound country, Dorian sounds jazzy. The tritone between the min 3 and Maj 6 is a rich sound to exploit. Flea's also been doing that for 30 years or so BTW. Never take sound for granted in any musical discussion, sound always matters, and always wins.
2) a lot of times, minor chords are implied as "ii's of something." In a iii min7-vi min7-ii min7-V7-I6, the iii chord can be felt as the ii of the ii chord, same concept as secondary dominants. This is all up for debate, that progression could be analyzed a couple different ways, you could even exploit that same progression a couple different ways in the same song depending what the soloist is doing with it, or during your own solo. I will say this… My first instinct would never be to play Phrygian and Aeolian for the iii and vi chords... because that just doesn't sound that jazzy. I would probably think Dorian for all three minor chords if we were just jamming on a looped progression. I imagine there is a loop like that already out there on YouTube, and it's not that hard to make your own, be sure to experiment on your own.
3) Dorian is a "safe" minor mode. Major sevenths and minor sixths clash with roots and 5ths, and are called "avoid tones" by some, I prefer the term "handle with care" tones. Dorian doesn't have any notes in it that clash with a minor seventh chord. Just like a major pentatonic takes any guesswork out of playing a country or Bluegrass solo, the Dorian mode takes any awkward notes out of the picture in a jazz setting. Now in a walking bassline, it's actually good to use those clashing notes once in a while, as long as you resolve them properly, but I guess you could say that about any note in jazz
I don't know that I can explain it any better in writing, I do hope that helps. I am reticent to advertise my lessons outwardly on talkbass, I'm not sure if that's within the rules and I will edit this if a mod wants me to, but if you wanted to explore this further you might want to contact me for a Skype/FaceTime lesson, or better yet in person if you're around San Diego. This goes a lot easier with sounds associated
Thanks for all the replies on this topic, I have been using dorian a lot on some of my bands tunes, and like the "hip' sound it gives over a iim7 chord. Thanks again!
If you were told to play scale-tones, it is meant that you should play tones only from the scale (or key) from wich the actual chord is taken.
Let's say you are in key of c-major. The c-major scale consists of the tones CDEFGAB.
Within the c-major chord you may want to walk from Dmin7 to G7 to CMaj7 (all are "members" of the c major key) using chord tones and scale tones. You therfore would be limited to the notes of the c major scale. Your line could possibly look like this:
D-E-F-A-G-A-B-D-C .
All used notes are scale tones of the c-major scale. Some of them (the underlined ones) are chord tones of the actual chord.
In the example 'A' is chord tone only of the D-minor chord. But the 'A' is also a scale tone of the C-major scale and therefore can be played 'over' the G7 chord. This is because the tone 'A' and the chord G7 both are taken from the same scale, the C-major scale.
Now what is it with those modes: You can start a scale with D and use the same notes as the C-major scale (DEFGABC). This is no longer called "c-major scale" but "d-dorian scale" or "the dorian mode of the c-major scale" or "the second mode of the c-major scale". The scales are made of the same tones, but have different names, because they have different root notes.
If you play a Dmin7 chord in the key of c-major, the root note of the chord is d and you can play the scale with the root note d and the same tones as the c-major scale: The d-dorian scale.
Nowadays key changes within a song are quite common and it is not trivial to find out the actual key.
A descent theory book should teach you how to determine key changes. Some of those books have lists of scale recommandations to play over more exotic chords.
Hope that helps.
Check out what some of the masters are playing when they walk over chord changes. Listen to Paul Chambers or Ron Carter walk over So What, you will get a feeling for what they're playing relating to a modal tune. Then again listen to Paul Chambers or Ray Brown, or Rufus Reid, Gary Willis, Jeff Andrews, Jeff Berlin, Alain Caron... listen to their note choices and you'll realize its not all about using a dorian mode to walk over a ii chord, or a mixo to walk over a V7 chord... They are supporting the harmony, but also they are moving somewhat smoothly from chord to chord, most of the time by a step. Knowing how the modes work over the all the chords helps you create walking bass lines, however, you're not going to just play the mode or arpeggiate the chord and call it walking... lots of chromatic movement and non-diatonic tones are used when walking, a good place to start in with the root on the downbeat of 1... or close to it...hahaha. Good luck and do a lot of listening.
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I'm not nearly as well educated as some here but as they've said, it's mostly about chord tones. I hear the chords and play them more or less, with passing tones thrown in for color and interest. Swing it nicely and, huzzah. My formal theory is crap but they love me in the big band. I just read the chords and swing as hard as I can. It doesn't have to be complicated.
