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Double Bass Questions regarding sound for live performance

So, I'm finally playing my upright bass in a live situation.


Three questions:

1) Any suggestions for how best to position my mic? It's an AT-350M with the universal clip. It seems like I can get a decent grip on the bridge adjusters, but it'd be super helpful to get some general ideas as to where the best place to point the mic is so that it's out of the way for bowing, it actually picks up the instrument, and it isn't too boomy.

2) We use wedge monitors, and there's going to be a lot of them. Do I need to have my wedge positioned behind me or do anything special with how they're aimed to avoid feedback? Had my first feedback experience tonight with my amp and it managed to be horrible for the whole family. :eek:

3) So I could theoretically bring my amp, BUT...since this is going to be my first live performance on upright, and it'll be in front of a fairly large group at a church service, am I better off not bringing it and letting the sound people worry about EQ and levels and everything else since I'll ultimately be going through the board (either straight through or from the DI on my amp)?
 
Put a good pickup on your bass, and put that through your amp, and send it to FOH. If you insist on using a mic in addition, get to the gig an hour early to sort out everything with the tech running PA. Other wise, show up with bass and amp having already spent time learning your equipment, getting a sound you can live with, and send a DI to the board.
 
For a quick answer, I'd agree with @salcott...

But it would be nice to know what kind of music you're playing, the makeup of the band, how much of the rest of the band is amped, and what kind of volume levels you're dealing with. Some genre are completely acoustic, some are heavily amped and crazy loud, and some are somewhere in the middle. Where your band sits in this mix is largely dependent on genre, and it can make a huge difference about pickups, mics, amps, FOH settings, etc.

Also, it'd be good to know something about the physical geometry of the venue and how familiar the FOH people are with working with a double bass.
 
Either no bass in the no monitors or no monitor for the bass. Or a separate monitor line without the bass for you.

Feedback is less if the monitor radiates to the ribs of the bass. But some turning of the bass can easily lead to feedback then.

In general: pickup to amp for your monitoring, mic or pickup DI to FOH.
Mic to monitors is a very bad idea.
Keep the stage volume as low as possible (the loud ones should play quieter).

If you only have the mic, put it FOH only and play acoustically. The others need to turn down. No bass to the monitors. Always play rather loud, so the others can hear you.
 
So to answer some questions:

1) Music is CCM (modern church music), but I think it’s more of an acoustic set. I don’t actually know the make up of the rest of the band. But I know there will be an electronic drum kit, a flute, a violin, and probably an acoustic guitar. Who knows what else.
2) Venue is a gym with a temporary stage. PA flown from the ceiling and stage isn’t in the direct path of the PA.
3) I have no idea how familiar FOH is with the bass, but I’m going to assume not at all. I think their approach to acoustic instruments has been to use an SM57 mic, because that’s what was mentioned in a conversation with the woman who is organizing the music side of things.

I would lean on the pickup, and it’s not a bad pickup, but I’ve never liked the sound of a piezo - even on other instruments. The bigger concern is that invariably, I end up with a cord (instrument or piezo to jack) that will somehow slowly migrate its way towards something, start vibrating and then sound horrible. I haven’t managed to get to a place where I can guarantee that it won’t happen, so I’d rather go a different route (hence the clip on mic).
 
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I had the ATM35 which was the pro version of the ATM 350. It has a very nice sound but it will feed back whereas a piezo pickup is much more resistant to that especially in a Gym.
I'm not fond of a pickup either, so I went with the most "microphone like" pickup for my bass the Ehrlund EAP. Unfortunately, it's pretty expensive now and you really have to
"try it before you buy it" because it either works with your bass or it doesn't. All you can really do is take the mic and see how it works, but you really want to avoid using it
back to your amp. The issue with the SM57 is that it's pretty much a front address mic so you really have to get the bass in exactly the right place to get a decent sound from
that particular mic, if they had a SM58 it would be IME infinitely better placed in foam under the bridge. With that EDK you're going to need something and a pickup, regardless
of it's timbre is much easier. Just my take of course.
 
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So to answer some questions:

1) Music is CCM (modern church music), but I think it’s more of an acoustic set. I don’t actually know the make up of the rest of the band. But I know there will be an electronic drum kit, a flute, a violin, and probably an acoustic guitar. Who knows what else.
2) Venue is a gym with a temporary stage. PA flown from the ceiling and stage isn’t in the direct path of the PA.
3) I have no idea how familiar FOH is with the bass, but I’m going to assume not at all. I think their approach to acoustic instruments has been to use an SM57 mic, because that’s what was mentioned in a conversation with the woman who is organizing the music side of things.

I would lean on the pickup, and it’s not a bad pickup, but I’ve never liked the sound of a piezo - even on other instruments. The bigger concern is that invariably, I end up with a cord (instrument or piezo to jack) that will somehow slowly migrate its way towards something, start vibrating and then sound horrible. I haven’t managed to get to a place where I can guarantee that it won’t happen, so I’d rather go a different route (hence the clip on mic).
Ok, thank you for the answers...

I agree with you about piezos. I have them on my double bass, but I also have a mounted mic. The churches our acoustic Gospel band has performed for are probably less tolerant of electronic sound, and more tolerant of acoustic sound, so I tend to try to use the mic most of the time for churches. But mics are more likely to participate in feedback, so if volumes are high with amps and monitors pointing all over the place, you may have difficulty controlling a mounted mic. Muting options mentioned in previous posts for piezo feedback control are also good for mounted mic, but they do change tone.

I've played frequently in large, low ceiling meeting halls. If the low ceiling is acoustical tile, they tend to be pretty manageable, but high open ceilings like many gymnasiums have tend to be large echo chambers. It'd be nice for you if you have a dress rehearsal so you can test things out with the sound people.

I tend to use FOH whenever it's available. I'll use my own amp when nothing else is available, and I'll also use it as a personal monitor if necessary, but it's really nice not having to worry about sound when that's why the FOH people are there. My experience with church FOH people has been really pretty good. That said, I do routinely have a gentle talk with FOH sound people to make sure they understand what the DB should sound like.

Generally I don't play crazy loud. Not that I don't enjoy rockabilly and I do slap a lot, but I tend more toward bluegrass and other acoustic roots sounds, and aside from DB I also play banjo and mandolin and occasionally flute. My band's regular bassist plays my DB on stage, and he is also a great lead guitarist/mandolinist and singer, so when playing with our band I play DB when he's on guitar or mandolin...

Since I have mounted both a piezo system and a mic setup on my DB it's pretty easy to switch around, and in fact I can use both at the same time with either my amp or with an FOH. I also use wireless TX/RC sets all the time, to my amp and/or to the FOH, so there are no wires coming from my DB; I highly recommend this, there's nothing like the freedom of being wireless, especially with something as big as a DB.

Best of luck with this. Churches are wonderful venues to play for.

P.S: Regarding cords coming from mounted peizo devices or mics and rattling on the DB, in my case zip ties are my friends. My DB looks somewhat esoteric anyway (to say the least), but zip ties can be located discretely in a lot of places.
 
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Thanks to everyone so far. I’m HOPING that at the first rehearsal we run through the sound system. That being said, we do have a dress rehearsal that starts 1:30 before the actual service as well, so hopefully that will be enough time to get the kinks wired out.

My pickup will be mounted on bass, and they do have direct boxes aplenty, so at least I’ll have that as a backup if we can’t get the mic to sound right…but man, I hate how piezo pickups manage to catch all the unnecessary noise, while somehow avoiding the actual richness of the sound.

Now I just have to become proficient enough with the French grip within the next 12 days. I learned using German grip, but unfortunately that grip doesn’t work with the tendons in my right wrist at this point. :banghead: Thankfully I wasn’t very good at German grip…:roflmao::sorry::crying:
 
I have a church gig for which I play without amplification on stage, but use an ATM 35 to the house. I just clip it to the bridge pointed a few inches from the top and it works fine.
However, I completely agree with Salcott. I don’t own a microphone or amp which will accept one. Both of my basses are equipped with Realist Lifelines and I see no reason to change a thing. In other situations requiring FOH support, I either use a Countryman DI or mic my amp. That gives me the most control of my sound. In my opinion, a good pickup and amp, along with a good concept of the ideal sound in the player’s head will get 90% of the way there. That additional 10% is where the danger is.
 
Thanks to everyone so far. I’m HOPING that at the first rehearsal we run through the sound system. That being said, we do have a dress rehearsal that starts 1:30 before the actual service as well, so hopefully that will be enough time to get the kinks wired out.

My pickup will be mounted on bass, and they do have direct boxes aplenty, so at least I’ll have that as a backup if we can’t get the mic to sound right…but man, I hate how piezo pickups manage to catch all the unnecessary noise, while somehow avoiding the actual richness of the sound.

Now I just have to become proficient enough with the French grip within the next 12 days. I learned using German grip, but unfortunately that grip doesn’t work with the tendons in my right wrist at this point. :banghead: Thankfully I wasn’t very good at German grip…:roflmao::sorry::crying:

Depending on how much you're willing to invest in a bow Carbow has what's called an Up/Down Bow that you can use either grip with. I have a friend who purchased one and loves it as the frog is bigger than a french and smaller than a german.

Screen Shot 2022-04-02 at 4.24.36 PM.png
 
My pickup will be mounted on bass, and they do have direct boxes aplenty, so at least I’ll have that as a backup if we can’t get the mic to sound right…but man, I hate how piezo pickups manage to catch all the unnecessary noise, while somehow avoiding the actual richness of the sound.

Success with a piezo pickup depends greatly on the impedance of the amp or preamp's input. They can sound pretty okay if the impedance is high enough.

Now I just have to become proficient enough with the French grip within the next 12 days. I learned using German grip, but unfortunately that grip doesn’t work with the tendons in my right wrist at this point. :banghead: Thankfully I wasn’t very good at German grip…:roflmao::sorry::crying:

Oh, is that all? Piece o' cake!;)
 
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Depending on how much you're willing to invest in a bow Carbow has what's called an Up/Down Bow that you can use either grip with. I have a friend who purchased one and loves it as the frog is bigger than a french and smaller than a german.

View attachment 4644366

Looks interesting!

I picked up a Glasser composite graphite bow, and some Leatherwood rosin. I have to say that I'm liking the sound so far, but I do need to put in the hours of practice.
 
Watch out if you're doing pizz and arco in the same song, or even in the session using a piezo through an amp or even through an FOH. Especially with piezos, amp/pre-amp settings for pizz are usually very different than those settings are for arco. Arco is usually much louder and fuller, so if you're switching between pizz and arco you may want to have a way to adjust volume and EQ quickly and easily. Once again, having a chance to test this in particular out before the show is a really good idea.
 
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@g-dude

Sorry this may seem TLDR, but I have tried to give you some useful info. Try to read through and don't hesitate to ask questions.

A good mic will capture a more authentic representation of your bass's sound. But using a mic live tends to be rather problematic. There are two major problems with using a mic: 1. Bleed from other instruments and 2. Feedback between the bass and various speakers the bass is running through. These problems become progressively worse as volume requirements go up. So a mic may work if the volume is low, but as the volume increases it becomes more and more difficult to get a good sound with a mic.

A big part of both problem is the upright bass is not a very loud instrument to begin with. If other sound sources are louder at the mic than your bass, then it tends to be a problem. To compensate you need to place the mic really close to the bass, which narrows the area of the bass that the mic is actually sensing. Unfortunately focusing on a small area may prevent the mic from picking up an accurate representation of what the bass sounds like.

Also, the sound from higher frequency instruments like cymbals will tend to hit the hard wood surface of the bass and reflect back into the mic. This can result in the cymbals being way louder in your mic signal than the bass. Worse yet, since the front of the bass is curved, the sound coming from the cymbals can be take multiple paths to the mic, which results in a nasty phasing/flanging effect. If the audio tech turns down the treble to try and mitigate the flanging, you no longer have a nice authentic bass sound. At this point IMHO, you might as well use a pickup.


Even worse if the sound of your bass coming back from your amp, the stage monitors, or the main PA cabs is louder at the mic than the direct sound coming from your bass. The bass, pickup, amp, speaker, and room acoustics form a feedback loop. If the gain is high enough, this feedback loop will start to modify the frequency response. In effect you get comb filtering where some frequencies add and other frequencies cancel. If the gain is high enough the resonant peaks will break over into feedback.

While a pickup may not sound as good as a mic, it typically will be way better at rejecting bleed from other instruments, and also have way higher gain before feedback. So IMHO mics are ideal in recording situations where the bass is isolated from other sound sources and you monitor on headphones instead of using a speaker of some sort. Then the mic only hears the sound of your bass and small amount of indirect reflections coming from the space you are in.

As has been mentioned, piezos pickups must be terminated with a relatively high impedance to sound their best. 1Meg is generally considered the minimum. The optimum impedance varies by pickup design. Many are best with an impedance somewhere between 4-5Meg, but even higher impedances can be optimum.

Most DIs put the amp's input impedance in parallel with the DI's input impedance. So if both have 1meg input impedance, the combined load on the pickup drops to 500K. The Countryman Type 85 has a 10Meg input impedance. So if the amp's input impedance is 1Meg, the combined load is 909K. I.E still almost 1Meg. The Countryman Type 85 is very common:
upload_2022-4-2_17-44-41.png


Another option is the Radial PZDI. The PZDI input impedance can be switched between 220K, 1Meg, and 10Meg. Additionally the "Thru" can be switched from parallel to buffered. If the Thru is buffered, the pickup is isolated from the input impedance of your amp and only sees the impedance of the DI. PZDI also has a switchable 3khz Low Pass Filter and a variable High Pass Filter. Although this is a very good option, I would expect the PZDI to be fairly rare:
upload_2022-4-2_17-45-34.jpeg


Some modern pickups actually sound really good. Older pickups tend to require quite a bit of corrective EQ to smooth out the high-mids and treble response. They can actually sound surprisingly good with some corrective EQ to smooth out the frequency response. I used to run a Fishman BP100 or Underwood. I thought the Underwood was marginally better, but neither was pleasant without a lot of corrective EQ.

IMHO you will probably have the best results running your bass through your amp and applying a bit of corrective EQ to get the best possible sound. You can try sending the mic to the audio tech, but the mic signal should not be used for stage monitors. If it's necessary to put the bass in the stage monitors, use a signal that comes from your pickup. Regardless, the audio tech should avoid putting the bass in monitors that are close to you.

I have had good luck elevating my cab to about waist level and tilting it back to aim at my head. When used this way, the cab is intended as my personal monitor and the PA delivers the bass to other players and the audience. This approach results in more clarity and the ability to hear with your amp running at a lower level. This reduces volume and aiming the mids away from the bass's body improves gain before feedback, but you won't hear a deep thumpy tone on stage. If that is what you want, you should put the amp on the floor. But you need to understand that you will probably have more problems with low frequency feedback with the amp on the floor. Choose the preferred compromise.

Working all of this out in a rehearsal is really a good idea. It's very likely that the audio tech will not know how to deal effectively with an acoustic upright bass. Upright bass tends to be rather difficult to amp well, so the audio tech really needs the right skills and knowledge. Attention to how the ensemble and monitors are laid out are important considerations.

Even if you get everything perfect in rehearsal, it's likely that considerable rework will be required on gig day unless everything remains exactly the same. Make sure the audio tech sets aside time on gig day to ensure everything is still dialed in.
 
I use to record/broadcast jazz groups in my younger days and would usually use a ribbon mic for body sound of a DB and then get a split off of the direct box feed from he bassists piezo. Then I would use a plexiglass panel (usually quite low and not too noticeable) to try and isolate the DB lower body from drums, guitar amps, trombones, etc. it was also quite helpful to have the bassists amp off of the floor. Of course you'll want to try and relocate wedge monitors away from the bass body. You might look into using a PJB Ear-Box for monitoring your bass and if you can, use a small pa speaker on a stand for you to monitor the rest of a band. A predominately acoustic band I use to be in would use hot spot monitors instead of wedges which really helped with feedback issues (fiddle, banjo, hammered dulcimer, acoustic guitar, bouzouki, mandolin, autoharp, all mic'd and electric bass). The point of monitoring is to help with timing and queues, not sounding like a hi-fi system. My bass amp was a GK 200MB mounted on a mic stand. Loud enough to be heard by the group without much bleed into their mics and no floor coupling
 
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@g-dude

Sorry this may seem TLDR, but I have tried to give you some useful info. Try to read through and don't hesitate to ask questions.

A good mic will capture a more authentic representation of your bass's sound. But using a mic live tends to be rather problematic. There are two major problems with using a mic: 1. Bleed from other instruments and 2. Feedback between the bass and various speakers the bass is running through. These problems become progressively worse as volume requirements go up. So a mic may work if the volume is low, but as the volume increases it becomes more and more difficult to get a good sound with a mic.

A big part of both problem is the upright bass is not a very loud instrument to begin with. If other sound sources are louder at the mic than your bass, then it tends to be a problem. To compensate you need to place the mic really close to the bass, which narrows the area of the bass that the mic is actually sensing. Unfortunately focusing on a small area may prevent the mic from picking up an accurate representation of what the bass sounds like.

Also, the sound from higher frequency instruments like cymbals will tend to hit the hard wood surface of the bass and reflect back into the mic. This can result in the cymbals being way louder in your mic signal than the bass. Worse yet, since the front of the bass is curved, the sound coming from the cymbals can be take multiple paths to the mic, which results in a nasty phasing/flanging effect. If the audio tech turns down the treble to try and mitigate the flanging, you no longer have a nice authentic bass sound. At this point IMHO, you might as well use a pickup.


Even worse if the sound of your bass coming back from your amp, the stage monitors, or the main PA cabs is louder at the mic than the direct sound coming from your bass. The bass, pickup, amp, speaker, and room acoustics form a feedback loop. If the gain is high enough, this feedback loop will start to modify the frequency response. In effect you get comb filtering where some frequencies add and other frequencies cancel. If the gain is high enough the resonant peaks will break over into feedback.

While a pickup may not sound as good as a mic, it typically will be way better at rejecting bleed from other instruments, and also have way higher gain before feedback. So IMHO mics are ideal in recording situations where the bass is isolated from other sound sources and you monitor on headphones instead of using a speaker of some sort. Then the mic only hears the sound of your bass and small amount of indirect reflections coming from the space you are in.

As has been mentioned, piezos pickups must be terminated with a relatively high impedance to sound their best. 1Meg is generally considered the minimum. The optimum impedance varies by pickup design. Many are best with an impedance somewhere between 4-5Meg, but even higher impedances can be optimum.

Most DIs put the amp's input impedance in parallel with the DI's input impedance. So if both have 1meg input impedance, the combined load on the pickup drops to 500K. The Countryman Type 85 has a 10Meg input impedance. So if the amp's input impedance is 1Meg, the combined load is 909K. I.E still almost 1Meg. The Countryman Type 85 is very common:
View attachment 4644411

Another option is the Radial PZDI. The PZDI input impedance can be switched between 220K, 1Meg, and 10Meg. Additionally the "Thru" can be switched from parallel to buffered. If the Thru is buffered, the pickup is isolated from the input impedance of your amp and only sees the impedance of the DI. PZDI also has a switchable 3khz Low Pass Filter and a variable High Pass Filter. Although this is a very good option, I would expect the PZDI to be fairly rare:
View attachment 4644412

Some modern pickups actually sound really good. Older pickups tend to require quite a bit of corrective EQ to smooth out the high-mids and treble response. They can actually sound surprisingly good with some corrective EQ to smooth out the frequency response. I used to run a Fishman BP100 or Underwood. I thought the Underwood was marginally better, but neither was pleasant without a lot of corrective EQ.

IMHO you will probably have the best results running your bass through your amp and applying a bit of corrective EQ to get the best possible sound. You can try sending the mic to the audio tech, but the mic signal should not be used for stage monitors. If it's necessary to put the bass in the stage monitors, use a signal that comes from your pickup. Regardless, the audio tech should avoid putting the bass in monitors that are close to you.

I have had good luck elevating my cab to about waist level and tilting it back to aim at my head. When used this way, the cab is intended as my personal monitor and the PA delivers the bass to other players and the audience. This approach results in more clarity and the ability to hear with your amp running at a lower level. This reduces volume and aiming the mids away from the bass's body improves gain before feedback, but you won't hear a deep thumpy tone on stage. If that is what you want, you should put the amp on the floor. But you need to understand that you will probably have more problems with low frequency feedback with the amp on the floor. Choose the preferred compromise.

Working all of this out in a rehearsal is really a good idea. It's very likely that the audio tech will not know how to deal effectively with an acoustic upright bass. Upright bass tends to be rather difficult to amp well, so the audio tech really needs the right skills and knowledge. Attention to how the ensemble and monitors are laid out are important considerations.

Even if you get everything perfect in rehearsal, it's likely that considerable rework will be required on gig day unless everything remains exactly the same. Make sure the audio tech sets aside time on gig day to ensure everything is still dialed in.

Good stuff.

Thankfully we don't have real drums. Just an electronic kit, so thankfully the cymbal issue isn't going to apply.

This is going to be interesting to say the least...we don't have a ton of room, but we'll be adding a few additional "sections" to the stage. My biggest fear is falling off the dang thing, as I'm usually in the back. I'm probably going to have to bring my amp, but might not have room for it.

Thankfully the stage volume tends not to be very loud, but yeah...this should be a memorable experience.
 
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My bass amp was a GK 200MB mounted on a mic stand. Loud enough to be heard by the group without much bleed into their mics and no floor coupling

I had the same setup with the bracket that GK made allowing for the amp to be mounted on standard microphone stand. Provided their was FOH support it worked quite well for monitoring. Elevating it that high will reduce bass response. I had a QSC K8 for a time which worked markedly better as a monitor and onstage amp.
Seems like the QSC is much better voiced for use as back line support. Just my take.
 
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I had the same setup with the bracket that GK made allowing for the amp to be mounted on standard microphone stand. Provided their was FOH support it worked quite well for monitoring. Elevating it that high will reduce bass response. I had a QSC K8 for a time which worked markedly better as a monitor and onstage amp.
Seems like the QSC is much better voiced for use as back line support. Just my take.

But for mid 80's it was a very decent setup. I've been looking at the "Gollihur Series" Acoustic Array Pro which is, as I understand, the Genzler Acoustic Array Pro with the bass speaker from the 10/2 cab. and like the old GK can be stand mounted. I'm looking for something that can handle fiddle, tenor banjo, octave mandolin, bouzouki, baritone guitar and bass and that would probably fit the bill.
 
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