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Double Bass Rabbath Bent Endpin

#41
<hijack>

p.nemeth said:
... I have no doubt that Rostropovich's conversion to the bent endpin contributed to his very poor playing towards the end of his life where his main concern was volume and making everything legato.
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... seriously?

I'd pick his Bach set (from the 90s iirc) over Yo-Yo's, for example, which is a little flowery for my taste.

Would you provide an example?

</hijack>
 
#42
damonsmith said:
I am not against them, as i have said before my gut takes care of balancing my bass for and does a great job, slimmer folks might do better with one of the angled pin options, it might even be something I use in the future.
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Funny my gut is the balance point for the bass with the bent pin, never was with the straight pin.


damonsmith said:
The whole Rabbath thing tends to polarize, my personal approach has been to look at his ideas with both distance and an open mind.
One thing to keep in mind is that most of the ideas assist playing in the particular style he plays in - which rules, but may not be the answer for many other situations.
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I have to disagree with that. Everything in my experience with the Rabbath method has been keeping an open mind and approching the instrument with a child like sense of exploration. In most of my playing I'm using more traditional simandl stuff because that's whats comfortable and when it feels natural I use things like pivots etc. I agree one should be aware of lots of methods and ways to do things.

as for orchestral playing, I have no idea since I have no orchestra experience, but I find it fine for low register walking, as well as my attempts to hack through bach cello suites and bottesini(trust me you don't want to hear), BUT Nicholas Walker, who I took the lessons from does lots of orchestral work, as well as solo, and jazz. He plays with the Handel and Haydn Society as well as many others, and always uses the laboire pin. If the pin is set up right acess to lower positions is not impeded at all, its how the player stands.
 
#43
I use an angled endpin on my bass pretty regularly. I see what people are saying in that it is not necessary, but for me, I never found a good standing posture using a straight endpin. I'm sure I could have eventually, but with the angled endpin, the bass feels absolutely stable and comfortable. As for drilling an extra hole, I agree that it is not optimal, but there are ways around it. KC Strings offers a really neat solution that doesn't adversely affect your instrument, and you can also use the EGGpin with a goetz endpin. I used one of those bent endpins before my bass was drilled, and while it worked, my bass was so heavy it made the endpin bounce uncomfortably. I still sit during orchetsra rehearsals, but in general practice and maybe half of the concerts we do, I stand.
 
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#47
Hello. I thought I would take a moment to clarify some things.

First, the main purpose of the bent (metal endpin in the normal place) or Laborie Endpin, (placed near back edge of bass at 44 degree angle in new hole or with KC Strings Alt. outside block) is to allow the bass to be held in a more "open" position (see a picture of Rabbath playing), without having the instrument feel heavy on the left thumb while playing in the lower positions i.e. first position.

The main reason for having the bass more open is too allow the natural weight of the right arm (bow) to access all 4 strings equally. An added benefit is an easier transition to and access to thumb position for the left hand as well as easier weight transfer to the fingers in thumb position. The initial feelings of instability disappear after a while. (Also, to move into thumb position, all that is necessary is to bend at the waist, allowing the torso to move closer to the upper positions, without changing anything else, including the angle of the bass, or the length of the bowarm.)

The technique is not a mystery, and is no long even controversial. It works. If you are not open to it, that is entirely your choice. It is, however, logical and very freeing.

I was a moderately talented orchestra player for many years. I always wanted to play with a free and beautiful tone and to be unhampered by my technique, but I always felt like I was up against a brick wall. The Rabbath technique has freed me to realize my own potential. If you want to see what I have been doing lately, check out my website at http://www.lloydgoldstein.com For a long time, my main goal was just to be able to play a beautiful, singing melody with the bow. Now that I have worked out for myself the basics of Rabbath's approach, I feel that with time and practice, I can do anything I want to do. It is up to me. It is true that no technique is a substitute for practice, but there is no reason to hamstring your efforts with a primitive technique.

Another note. The bent or Laboire enpin is not really intended for sitting, though some may find it useful for that. It is certainly not necessary in the orchestra. This is one of the reasons why you do not see the big orchestra guys with holes drilled in their orchestra basses. And the comparison with Rostropovich is absurd, because the purpose for the cello angled pin was to change the angle of the instrument, and that is not the purpose of the Rabbath approach.

For those of you who think that solo playing is for the .01% of players, think again. Anyone who wants to can play gorgeous melodies on the double bass, that will make people weep and wonder why they ever listened to the cello or violin. If you want to, you can. The technique is readily available.

Lastly, Rabbath has worked out a way to cover the whole instrument in 6 logical positions based on the harmonic series. It makes the bass feel much smaller and less daunting. I just met a man from Quebec who has done the work systematically and makes it look easy. Soon, I will make it look easy too. This year a new DVD called "The Art of the Left Hand" will become available. Then there will be no excuses.

Finally!!! For those of you really interested in learning about this "new" approach to freeing yourself on the double bass, instead of criticizing something you really don't know a hell of a lot about, I advise you to purchase the groundbreading DVD, "The Art of the Bow" by Rabbath, produced by Hans Sturm at Ball State University, and then you will learn.
 
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#49
Thanks for that post Lloyd. Glad someone has more energy than I to try to explain what the Rabbath technique is about. It is so far from being about an endpin, a particular way of holding the bass, fingering passages, or some other fancy technical hooha. It is about playing the music beautifully. As Francois says in his unique English... "All the technique in the world is just to play one note beautifully".
 
#50
Lloyd, that was some really beautiful playing and your website was very touching. I agree with you that the Rabbath method is very freeing and it does promote endless possibilities in improvisation and technique. I'm glad that we see eye to eye that for orchestral playing the bent-pin is completely not necessary, though Francois' technique is very useful for any kind of playing whether that be jazz, orchestra, or solo. I personally don't play with flat fingers, but that's a different topic.
 
#52
quenoil said:
Thanks for that post Lloyd. Glad someone has more energy than I to try to explain what the Rabbath technique is about. It is so far from being about an endpin, a particular way of holding the bass, fingering passages, or some other fancy technical hooha. It is about playing the music beautifully. As Francois says in his unique English... "All the technique in the world is just to play one note beautifully".
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I agree. When I went to see Rabbath at David Gage's, I had the chance to talk with his son, Olivier (the one who designed the bass case). At first, we were talking about his cases because I remembered the troubles I had with the heavy case I was using when my orchestra went to Brazil. But soon, we were talking about art and music and what it really meant. And we both agreed that all the technique, fingering exercises, etc. in the world didn't mean a thing if you didn't bring out the listener's emotions. In the end, music is about making beautiful music, and however method you choose to bring out this music is up to you; there is no right or wrong answer to which method is the best way to play with.
 
#53
damonsmith said:
That part always sounded "primitive" to me!
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musically or mentally? I don't think anything about Rabbath's playing sounds primative. With the bow at the point of the dom7th harmonic to any given note you eliminate that overtone which helps with rabbath and many others singing tone, wheras traditional bow techniques need more clarity thus finger tips IME. Playing pizz, I tend to be more on the tips. I have found that the rabbath stuff helped me begin to explore arco solos in jazz. I was always interested but hated the scrachy sound produced by many. It's possible to play beautiful sounding horn/vocal like melodies with both bow sounds, but I personally prefer the cleaner sound.

there is a thoreau quote from walden that I really like, I don't mean to make any sentiments tword you damon, I really enjoy your music and playing and you show far better technique than I do so don't take this as a stab to you.

"What old people say you cannot do, you try and find that you can. Old deeds for old people, and new deeds for new."

I think this really applies to the people who seem to think simandl is the only way, and it always kind of reminds me of people like rabbath.

p.s. Llyod beautiful playing!
 
#55
I am just kind of playing up the other side for discussion sake, honestly my whole stance and physical approach is based on Rabbath, I just use a straight pin and curved fingers (or at least try), I use pivots when I need them and my French bow grip is all Rabbath.

Rabbath is one of the best things in the last century for the instrument, I just like to look at his ideas as additions rather than wholesale replacements.
 
#56
damonsmith said:
I am just kind of playing up the other side for discussion sake, honestly my whole stance and physical approach is based on Rabbath, I just use a straight pin and curved fingers (or at least try), I use pivots when I need them and my French bow grip is all Rabbath.

Rabbath is one of the best things in the last century for the instrument, I just like to look at his ideas as additions rather than wholesale replacements.
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+1000 Damon. You can use FR's style with or without the Laborie EP, and you can use the Bent endpin with Simandl, or Petrachi, or any thing else. Just play!
 
#57
quenoil said:
Thanks for that post Lloyd. Glad someone has more energy than I to try to explain what the Rabbath technique is about. It is so far from being about an endpin, a particular way of holding the bass, fingering passages, or some other fancy technical hooha. It is about playing the music beautifully. As Francois says in his unique English... "All the technique in the world is just to play one note beautifully".
Click to expand...
You really said that beautifully!. Thanks.
 
#58
dchan said:
I agree. When I went to see Rabbath at David Gage's, I had the chance to talk with his son, Olivier (the one who designed the bass case). At first, we were talking about his cases because I remembered the troubles I had with the heavy case I was using when my orchestra went to Brazil. But soon, we were talking about art and music and what it really meant. And we both agreed that all the technique, fingering exercises, etc. in the world didn't mean a thing if you didn't bring out the listener's emotions. In the end, music is about making beautiful music, and however method you choose to bring out this music is up to you; there is no right or wrong answer to which method is the best way to play with.
Click to expand...
I just spent another week with Rabbath and three other great teachers in Maryland, and they all told me what I needed to do to move forward with my playing, do this, don't do that, etc. And I will take their advice to heart and do the work this year. But ultimately it is up to me to communicate in the way that makes sense to my heart, my ears, what is important for me to say. In the end we have to trust ourselves and be honest and say what we mean musically. It has to come from inside. Any technique is just a way to say it more clearly and efficiently. Rabbath says that with the proper work, anyone can become a virtuoso in 6 years. His definition of virtuoso is "no more physical hindrance". But then he adds . . . "Then, if you have something to say, well . . . "
 

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