Double Bass Rabbath Bent Endpin

[damonsmith]

I think it is a lot of hoping gear will change what only practice can. I have found my balance point with my straight pin, it is something that needs to be done but I think it can be done either way.
It does make a difference but it does not make the impossible possible and does not practice the bass for you.

 

[Clay_Bass]

I think it is a lot of hoping gear will change what only practice can. I have found my balance point with my straight pin, it is something that needs to be done but I think it can be done either way.
It does make a difference but it does not make the impossible possible and does not practice the bass for you.

completely agreed, although I do believe there are certain things that make some things easier and more efficent physically as well as mentally. I think both views are clearly expressed and people can make their own decisions as far as that goes. I did have a great balance point with the straight pin before and wasn't unhappy, I just bought the bent pin out of curiosity to try it out and now as I said feel much more comfortable and using less force to get more of a sound.

 

[damonsmith]

completely agreed, although I do believe there are certain things that make some things easier and more efficent physically as well as mentally. I think both views are clearly expressed and people can make their own decisions as far as that goes. I did have a great balance point with the straight pin before and wasn't unhappy, I just bought the bent pin out of curiosity to try it out and now as I said feel much more comfortable and using less force to get more of a sound.

I am not against them, as i have said before my gut takes care of balancing my bass for and does a great job, slimmer folks might do better with one of the angled pin options, it might even be something I use in the future.
The whole Rabbath thing tends to polarize, my personal approach has been to look at his ideas with both distance and an open mind.
One thing to keep in mind is that most of the ideas assist playing in the particular style he plays in - which rules, but may not be the answer for many other situations.

 

[PaulCannon]

As far as damage to the bass is concerned, if Don Robertson says it's not a problem, then I will trust him. The only instance of damage from the "sex change" I have seen was the result of an inexperienced luthier trying something new for the first time.

I drilled my bass, and I love it. The bass is much more resonant because of it. I think the heavy metal pin really restricts the sound of the bass.

Also, why don't we see the Philly Orch. or any other Orchestra with these Bent Pins (regular socket or added) in the section if it makes playing so much easier. Isn't the music itself hard enough to play that if better, they would all switch like they often do when trying out a possible better string?

I think this is kind of a silly question. These Laborie pins are a relatively new concept. They came out, what, ten years ago? Many professional bass players haven't even seen these things yet. Older players are also much less likely to try something so radically different after many years of successfully using their setup.

Show me someone drilling holes into a Montagnana, Maggini or Fendt and I will show you someone who needs some Jail time for the crime they have committed.

Paul Ellison drilled his Maggini. Will you call the police, or shall I?

 

[anonymous12251111]

As far as damage to the bass is concerned, if Don Robertson says it's not a problem, then I will trust him. The only instance of damage from the "sex change" I have seen was the result of an inexperienced luthier trying something new for the first time.

I drilled my bass, and I love it. The bass is much more resonant because of it. I think the heavy metal pin really restricts the sound of the bass.

I think this is kind of a silly question. These Laborie pins are a relatively new concept. They came out, what, ten years ago? Many professional bass players haven't even seen these things yet. Older players are also much less likely to try something so radically different after many years of successfully using their setup.

Paul Ellison drilled his Maggini. Will you call the police, or shall I?

I think the answer to the first question regarding the Philly Orch might have to do with the actual purpose of the bent pin. I like using it for soloing but it makes no sense to use it to play Brahms. Go find a stool and relax during Parsifal. When it comes down to hour 3 I'm not going to be caring how much the endpin affects the resonance of my instrument, I'm going to be concentrating on keeping relaxed and making it through the show comfortably without messing up. Perhaps for the virtuoso soloist the end-pin is ideal but how often are you going to play a grand concerto with orchestra versus playing a Beethoven symphony?

 

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Paul Ellison drilled his Maggini. Will you call the police, or shall I?

From the pictures I've seen, that's a British Bass about 200 years younger than Maggini. One of the leading experts in the world agrees with me. If his Bass is a Maggini, then my Hart is as well and my Gilkes is a Strad!

 

[anonymous12251111]

From the pictures I've seen, that's a British Bass about 200 years younger than Maggini. One of the leading experts in the world agrees with me. If his Bass is a Maggini, then my Hart is as well and my Gilkes is a Strad!

lol. nice. But really who cares if his bass isn't a Maggini, I bet it sounds great. I still wouldn't put a second hole in it, but I'm not the 0.01 percent of solo bassists in the world.

 

[p.nemeth]

I think it is a lot of hoping gear will change what only practice can.

Amen.

 

[jgbass]

Here is a link to George Vance's site that shows pictures of the two types of bent/Z endpins and the Laborie.

Link Removed

 

[PaulCannon]

I use a shorter laborie pin in orchestra to sit with. It definitely improved the sound of my bass. It doesn't do that for every bass, but more often than not it does make some improvement.

The bass is also slightly easier to play because of it. The tail wire isn't being pulled on by the straight pin, so there is less tension on the top of the instrument. That means it takes less effort to pull a sound, as the bass is fighting with you less.

I'm not saying now that I've found something I like, everybody should go out and get it. Drilling your bass is scary, but I've found it to be necessary. If it's not for you, fine, but I feel like people are being too closed-minded about it. Next time you find a bass that has the hole, try playing it once with a straight metal pin, and once with the Laborie. You will likely hear a significant difference is tone quality and resonance.

Calvin, shame you're not here at Domaine. Almost everybody here has the pin.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

In my opinion for what ever it's worth to anyone is that drilling a hole in the Rib of an old English or Italian Bass or any other valued Antique DB will affect the value of the Bass at least to me who would have to have it repaired and the Block replaced for it to be as it was minus the missing wood of the Rib which would be gone forever.

Show me someone drilling holes into a Montagnana, Maggini or Fendt and I will show you someone who needs some Jail time for the crime they have committed.

Just my opinion.

Couldn't the same thing be said about adding the fourth string to original three string instruments, or cutting down shoulders, etc. Haven't many of these old basses been modified from the original to make playing improvements for their owners?

On value, a purchaser who plays with a Laborie pin could conceivably see more value in a bass already set up with the angled hole, especially if they don't have to take on the responsibility for cutting a valuable antique themselves.

The KC Strings solution seems like the ticket for those concerned with this.

 

[mheintz]

My two cents. I use an eggpin, which perhaps doesn't have the sonic advantages of the Laborie, but is adjustable and doesn't require a hole. I have found that I can get a better position with the eggpin than with a bent pin, but the eggpin is a pain to carry around.

I use a shorter Laborie pin in orchestra to sit with.

I alternate between sitting and standing. I find that I get tired of one or the other, particularly during long rehearsals. While sitting, I find that the bass slides less with my eggpin (or other angled pin) than with a straight pin.

I think that whether a player finds any of the angled pins helpful depends in part on the instrument and the player's arm length and height. For example, I would think that for a really large bass (or a medium size bass with a shorter player), an angled pin won't help much because the bass already sits so close to the floor. Some players might also find that angling the bass prevents them from letting their arm hang naturally. For me, this wasn't a problem and I find that going back to a straight pin, although doable, feels heavy.

 

[jgbass]

I'm not saying now that I've found something I like, everybody should go out and get it. Drilling your bass is scary, but I've found it to be necessary. If it's not for you, fine, but I feel like people are being too closed-minded about it. Next time you find a bass that has the hole, try playing it once with a straight metal pin, and once with the Laborie. You will likely hear a significant difference is tone quality and resonance.

My decision to go with the bent and Laborie endpin has nothing to do with looking for any excuse for gear to take the place of practice. I would further say that having this type of endpin makes it possible for me to play for longer periods of time and has helped me physically to navigate the bass in a more efficent way.

My decision came from my fine experiences and recommendations from various masters classes, bass events, private instructors and my personal assessment of what makes the best sense for me. And, right, this is not for everyone.

Some of the bassists I know who use the Laborie and/or bent endpin include Rabbath, John Clayton, Bert Turetzsky, Kristin Korb, Lynne Seaton, and Patrick Neher, just to name a few. I am sure others here could add to this list. I am sure that all of these folks made well-informed decisions before making the choice to drill and I would be hard put to say any of these fine bassists were looking for any quick fixes. I just think they had to openess of mind to look at something new and felt it would be of benefit to them and compatable with their personal technique.

 

[RCWilliams]

i think you guys who use the Rabbath method should explain the difference between it and the "standard" or traditional method. there in lies the impetus for the tilted or bent end pins. I am not a player, so my understanding is cursory at best, but those who know should share, or perhaps visit Lynn Seatons thread and ask some questions.

 

[mheintz]

i think you guys who use the Rabbath method should explain the difference between it and the "standard" or traditional method. there in lies the impetus for the tilted or bent end pins.

I think that most bassists associate angled pins with Rabbath and it is part of his technique, but one need not use Rabbath left-hand or right-hand technique with an angled pin. On cello at least, angled pins predate Rabbath. (Rostropovich, among others, was a proponent.)

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I'm not trying to take away anything from Rabbath, just pointing out that the decision to use an angled pin doesn't necessarily mean that you can't stick with Simandl and Nanny. With an angled pin, some concepts of balancing and bowing are different than, e.g., Karr, but not so much, that one couldn't adapt the angled pin to any school of playing. But maybe others have different thoughts on that.

 

[bankerwithabass]

I will pass on this one. I like my end pin the way it is, straight, no muss no fuss.

I just couldn't drill the hole thinking that there are reasons why things have evolved as they have all these years.

 

[drurb]

On cello at least, angled pins predate Rabbath. (Rostropovich, among others, is a proponent.)

Not anymore, he's not. Check Invalid Link Removed.

 

[mheintz]

Not anymore, he's not. Check Invalid Link Removed.

Noted. Good life. Good music.

 

[anonymous12251111]

Calvin, shame you're not here at Domaine. Almost everybody here has the pin.

I know. I got in but applied late so I didn't qualify for Financial Aid, so I couldn't go. Real bummer. Basically just doing Tafelmusik, working and practicing this summer and a small vacation to the cottage in Quebec

 

[p.nemeth]

I think that most bassists associate angled pins with Rabbath and it is part of his technique, but one need not use Rabbath left-hand or right-hand technique with an angled pin. On cello at least, angled pins predate Rabbath. (Rostropovich, among others, was a proponent.)

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What Rostropovich did with his endpin has important differences from Rabbath and the Laborie endpin that should be noted. There's not an extra hole in his cello the way there is with the with the Laborie on bass: as you can see in the picture that you posted, it is merely bent at the top. Rostropovich did this so that the fingerboard would be higher for left hand reasons with the cello at a more horizontal angle. He also believed that he could drape his arm over the cello more at this angle and use more weight. From what I've heard from cellists, it adds balance issues to playing and I have no doubt that Rostropovich's conversion to the bent endpin contributed to his very poor playing towards the end of his life where his main concern was volume and making everything legato. Laborie endpins seem to be mainly for two things that are not what Rostropovich was after: balance while standing, and alleviating the pressure on the front of the bass.