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Random Thought of the Day: Scale Length

L0ckett

L0ckett

Apr 24, 2022
141
302
#1
My newest obsession is buying cheap basses to modify in unique/uncommon ways. I tend to think outside of the box in many aspects of my daily life and...well...bass is no exception. I'm going to be ordering a Squier Debut Series P bass later this week for my next project and it got me thinking...

Lately I've been GASing for a Mattisson but they're WELL outside of my budgetary options. One of their features is the 32"/36" scale where the B string can be strung through the rear of the body to give it an extended scale length. My thought is what if this was done for each string on a 4-string to give the strings the tension of a 37" for instance. I know this would make more sense on a 5 or 6 string but the curiosity is still there. What negative implications could arise by having each string strung through the rear of the body? I'm a man of average intelligence who always has weird ideas that sometimes overlooks potential technical issues so I wanted to get thoughts from the more knowledgeable. What are your thoughts on this?
 
#4
L0ckett said:
My newest obsession is buying cheap basses to modify in unique/uncommon ways. I tend to think outside of the box in many aspects of my daily life and...well...bass is no exception. I'm going to be ordering a Squier Debut Series P bass later this week for my next project and it got me thinking...

Lately I've been GASing for a Mattisson but they're WELL outside of my budgetary options. One of their features is the 32"/36" scale where the B string can be strung through the rear of the body to give it an extended scale length. My thought is what if this was done for each string on a 4-string to give the strings the tension of a 37" for instance. I know this would make more sense on a 5 or 6 string but the curiosity is still there. What negative implications could arise by having each string strung through the rear of the body? I'm a man of average intelligence who always has weird ideas that sometimes overlooks potential technical issues so I wanted to get thoughts from the more knowledgeable. What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
In terms of tension proper (lengthways pull), "afterlenghts" - i.e. what lies beyond the bridge saddle at one end, beyond the nut at the other - matter zero.
In other words, they can be one-inch or two-foot long, and tension - which is solely determined by 1) pitch, 2) linear mass of the string and 3) scale length nut to bridge - won't change in either case.

What will, with a significant afterlength, is the overall stretch upon the attack, which will, counterproductively enough, make for a *looser* feel.

Arguably, a couple minor aspects would also change:
- the note envelope upon the attack might be marginally less jolty (note won't initially go as sharp, with a forceful pluck)
- see @Bruce Johnson's thoughts on "the snap", in this overall pertinent thread:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/string-tension-and-compliance.1481345/

In short, these latter two minor aspects may or may not offset the other one (the looser feel upon plucking), being more associated with long scale, and make the overall idea worth your time and elbow grease.
 
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#5
So, basically its a 36" scale, 6-string bass; strung thru-body; and intended to make it easy to capo it into a 32" scale bass. Well... first of all, there's nothing new about thru-body stringing. Leo Fender was doing that before I was a teenager - and I'm 73. I have 3 basses right now that can be strung that way, and 2 of them are. In fact, my 32" scale Fury Anthem fretless bass has to be strung that way. As for the capo thing? Well, if that's a thing that appeals to you, then - go for it. Normal 34" scale (or shorter) 4-string basses have worked well for me, for over 50 years. I have no desire - or need - for a bass like that. But, some people do, so... feel free to buy the left handed one they would have to make for me - if I wanted one...:cool:
 
#6
Funny enough I've thought about trying something similar: tune down a whole step to have a low D (A), and then capoing if I needed an open low Eb (Bb) or E (B). Sort of like a pitch shifter but working backwards instead.
 
#7
L0ckett said:
My newest obsession is buying cheap basses to modify in unique/uncommon ways. I tend to think outside of the box in many aspects of my daily life and...well...bass is no exception. I'm going to be ordering a Squier Debut Series P bass later this week for my next project and it got me thinking...

Lately I've been GASing for a Mattisson but they're WELL outside of my budgetary options. One of their features is the 32"/36" scale where the B string can be strung through the rear of the body to give it an extended scale length. My thought is what if this was done for each string on a 4-string to give the strings the tension of a 37" for instance. I know this would make more sense on a 5 or 6 string but the curiosity is still there. What negative implications could arise by having each string strung through the rear of the body? I'm a man of average intelligence who always has weird ideas that sometimes overlooks potential technical issues so I wanted to get thoughts from the more knowledgeable. What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

The Mattison 32/36 is an interesting idea.....made for a special purpose use. A bassist who needs to frequently switch between dropped tuning and regular tuning, on stage, between songs, could find this useful. The idea is to go with a 36" scale bass and normally keep it tuned down a full step. All the strings. Slap a capo on the 2nd fret and in a few seconds it becomes a 32" scale bass, up a full step. You can "instantly" change tuning up or down a full step. Okay, that's cool. Not for everybody, but useful to some players.

Being string through at the bridge is a different thing. Adding extra "afterlength" to the string behind the saddle does not change the scale length or the tension of the string. But it does change the sound and feel a small amount. I call this characteristic the Snap of the string. I explain it out in detail in that older thread that HaphAsSard linked to.

Many of us builders add that afterlength to shape the sound and character of our basses. All of the basses I build have a long afterlength, some as long as 3".
 
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#8
To add to the after length side conversation, Devon Smullen showed a prototype bass with "adjustable" after length where the ball ends of the string could slot into different points on the back of the body. No idea what he ended up doing with it.
 
#9
L0ckett said:
My newest obsession is buying cheap basses to modify in unique/uncommon ways. I tend to think outside of the box in many aspects of my daily life and...well...bass is no exception. I'm going to be ordering a Squier Debut Series P bass later this week for my next project and it got me thinking...

Lately I've been GASing for a Mattisson but they're WELL outside of my budgetary options. One of their features is the 32"/36" scale where the B string can be strung through the rear of the body to give it an extended scale length. My thought is what if this was done for each string on a 4-string to give the strings the tension of a 37" for instance. I know this would make more sense on a 5 or 6 string but the curiosity is still there. What negative implications could arise by having each string strung through the rear of the body? I'm a man of average intelligence who always has weird ideas that sometimes overlooks potential technical issues so I wanted to get thoughts from the more knowledgeable. What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Am I missing something? Is the feature really "tune the bass lower then capo it?" Does that count as a feature ? Does it cost more??

Anyhoo..

As others said, string-through isn't a new concept, nor is it rocket science. I'm personally also of the opinion that it doesn't do a whole lot.
I want to be SUPER clear that it isn't going to do much ( and probably does close to nothing) in terms of making a B / low string any better. Actually, in my estimation it can actually make things a teeeeeeeeny tiny bit worse, as you're adding a length of string that can theoretically stretch and slack, making things floppier if anything.. but again i don't think it does much. There is an argument to be made about it improving resonance, but I'll leave that to a tonewood argument discussion.

But again, in NO uncertain terms: ADDING UNSOUNDED LENGTH OF STRING DOES NOT MAKE THE SCALE LONGER, AND IT DOES NOT ADD TENSION. IT CANNOT. The pitch of a string is dictated by its mass and its length and tension.. that's it. If you use the same gauge string, the same length from nut to bridge, you can add a thousand miles of string past the bridge, it can be strung through the body or drilled into the core of the earth, IF IT'S STILL AT THE SAME PITCH, THE TENSION IS THE SAME IN THE SOUNDING REGION


edit: and I guess I'll temper my position slightly. I think string-through can have an effect, but it has more to do with feel, and maybe a hair to do with the resonance and some hard-to-quantify effect on the 'character' of the tone. But it is not some magic bullet that suddenly makes a 32" B function like a much longer B. It just doesn't
 
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#10
There CAN be some mechanical advantages or disadvantages stringing through-body.. Namely the added length vs the string's intended scale length. So for example- if your strings have EXTRA long silks, stringing through-body can take that out of the equation.

However, if the strings have a pretty tight window between their usable length and the intended scale, stringing through-body can render the string effectively too short. IE the thinner windings that go around the tuner and into the tuner hole can end up on the wrong side of the nut, contributing to the sound, likely negatively.

If the strings are supposed to be tapered at the bridge, string-through can move the taper outside of the sounding length.. similarly for strings that have thinner windings near the ball end to accommodate the break angle without damaging the string, stringing though body can also be an issue.
 
#13
Dingwall did something like this a year ago or so with a BEAD tuned 4 string and a specialized capo. I didn't really get that one as the position markers didn't move. Maybe if there was something like SIMMS LEDs in the position markers and they switched based on capo position or something like that. But that's overkill for something I've never needed.
 
#14
Lackey said:
I wasn't aware of the 32/ 36 Mattisson, so I googled it..... I don't get it. It's a solution looking for a problem, but, I don't see the solution. It's a 36" scale bass tuned down a step...

Click to expand...

I think we're at the zenith of innovation regarding bass guitar construction. That's where these "solutions looking for a problem" come from - builders deciding they want to innovate and then working backwards from that thought. There's not a lot of problems that need solving anymore considering you can walk into a studio with a P Bass and fulfill the requirements of almost any session. That's not to say I don't appreciate some of the modern stuff we have these days like fan frets and alternate building materials, but it's all kinda superfluous regarding it's necessity.
 
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#15
What would be possibly useful is a bass that can drop a half step on all strings quickly and stay in tune. I had something like that with the Steinberger TransTrem, but it had its limitations. I know there are Drop pedals, I have one. But they have weird artifacts and latency issues.
 
#16
Classic Solution to a problem few have, but as far as scale length, I’d say 32” is my current favorite. Avoids the “sloppiness” common to Short scale, but a little less wear and tear and reach for those of us with a bit of arthritis. I don’t notice any real tension difference between 3:” and 34” either.
 
#18
HaphAsSard said:
In terms of tension proper (lengthways pull), "afterlenghts" - i.e. what lies beyond the bridge saddle at one end, beyond the nut at the other - matter zero.
In other words, they can be one-inch or two-foot long, and tension - which is solely determined by 1) pitch, 2) linear mass of the string and 3) scale length nut to bridge - won't change in either case.

What will, with a significant afterlength, is the overall stretch upon the attack, which will, counterproductively enough, make for a *looser* feel.

Arguably, a couple minor aspects would also change:
- the note envelope upon the attack might be marginally less jolty (note won't initially go as sharp, with a forceful pluck)
- see @Bruce Johnson's thoughts on "the snap", in this overall pertinent thread:
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/string-tension-and-compliance.1481345/

In short, these latter two minor aspects may or may not offset the other one (the looser feel upon plucking), being more associated with long scale, and make the overall idea worth your time and elbow grease.
Click to expand...
This post needs to be tagged with “can I get a witness?”.
 
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#19
Modulus 96 said:
To add to the after length side conversation, Devon Smullen showed a prototype bass with "adjustable" after length where the ball ends of the string could slot into different points on the back of the body. No idea what he ended up doing with it.
Click to expand...

I did that on my Series III model Scroll Basses, which I made from 2000 to 2005. They had four long tailpieces, one for each string, and each tailpiece had four anchor holes.

IMG_1743B.jpg


The reason for this was to allow for availability of strings. This is a 35" scale bass, designed to use flatwound strings. And flatwounds have to fit very accurately up at the headstock. Using the holes all the way in the back, which you see the strings in above, requires special custom-order extra-long strings. That gets the full "snap" effect from the long afterlength, which we discussed above.

The extra holes up closer to the bridge are in case you run out of or can't get the custom order strings. You can put on some commonly available length strings, at the penalty of losing most of the Snap effect.

And yes, on this type of bass, you can definitely hear and feel the difference between 1" of afterlength and 3" of afterlength. This is a bass with flatwounds, fretless, medium action, and plucked hard. Going for that upright-like sound. That's where you can use the extra Snap. To add to the percussive sound.
 
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#20
I've got a 32" 5 string with the option to string the B and E through the body so that you can use regular scale strings on it. I don't do this because I found that those two strings sound like they're coming from a different bass, just a bit too "off" compared to putting them through the bridge like the rest of the strings.
 

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