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Ray Ross Bridges

Each to their own I guess.

Point 1: I’ve had tuner heads break on gigs. Twice. On a KSD ProtoJ and on a Sire. Both cheap made. I do 6 gigs a week. I’m not taking those chances. I’ve never for 22 years of playing bass for a living had a piece of reputable hardware break.

Point 2: from a reliability point of view, it is. From a sound point of view - I’ve only found a difference significant enough to mention with the Ray Ross bridge, and I’ve tried many bridges.

Point 3: and I’ll repeat myself as many times as I have to, as people seem to unite older posts. With the RR bridge my ears confirmed what was measured by Bacchus in their video and if you google it you could see for yourself she difference in sustain, harmonics and frequency.
Back in the day when I really wanted a BadA$$ bridge and finally got one, I really wanted to hear a difference. I didn’t.

Point 4: Agreed.

Point 5: A point of view.

Point 6: It can’t be all hype man. People sooner or later realise what is a waste of money and what isn’t and they’ve had enough time to see the difference.
I'm guessing you were quoting my post from above. Using the forum's reply tool would things more clear in the future.

So we agree on everything except for 5 and 6. Point 5 was not a point of view. It's a highly debatable topic. That's not a point of view, it's an objective fact as is evidenced by this thread and many others just like. Point 6 can absolutely be hype. History has proven this time and time again. The term "snake oil" is used to describe this very thing. I wish it weren't the case, but it is.
 
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The theory of cognitive dissonance (also a great tune by Robert Fripp) agrees with this. Anything we believe will make a change, especially if it was expensive, will likely induce a perception of change. I could take any bass and post different clips like the recent one in this thread. If I simply say there's a difference in hardware people will hear it as they don't want to say they can't.

Something to notice in many threads here and other forums is how people say that can't hear a difference. We use phrases like the difference is so slight it's barely perceptible. Or it makes almost no difference. It takes a lot of confidence to say I can't hear any difference and few people can do that as it's seen as a statement of weakness. So we often rephrase it to say we can still hear a difference as a defense mechanism. And once we've done that we've personalized the statement and see contradiction as a personal attack that must be defended against. Few musicians understand this, all marketers know it well.

You’re probably right. And the theory probably applies in many cases.

I’ll keep insisting that unless you’ve checked it yourself (should work the other way shouldn’t it, If you expect to hear no difference at all, there shouldn’t be any, right?), your argument can’t weight as much as mine as it is based on suggestions.

You can’t say that in a few videos, made by different people, in which a good amount of people can actually hear a difference, that is caused by a psychological reason.

Why don’t you get one and make a test yourself? Or a video? I’m sure most of the shops would have some 30 days return policy or something.
 
In the Ray Ross bridge case my ears made the same conclusion that could be seen being measured in the Bacchus videos so I’m pretty sure it’s no placebo. And I find the difference useful.
The thing about placebos is you can't tell. It's why we do double blind tests. In your last clips the ray ross bridge is a little louder in all the clips. You may not know you're playing different but something like your excitement of playing your choice may make you play just a bit harder. That makes one clip louder and people will chose that. In real tests you can take the same clip, slightly change the volume of one and people will prefer the louder one and this has been demonstrated in lab conditions. Also the order of the clips will create a clear statistical preference. If you know you're playing your hardware of choice your mindset while playing is different. Things like this are why red guitars are louder than blue ones.

The Pepsi paradox is a great example of how knowing what we are consuming will influence our evaluations. Here's some info on that.

How the Brain Reveals Why We Buy

.... At least that is the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the only (so far) classic study in neuromarketing, a fascinating study of what can be called the Pepsi paradox. For decades, it has been known that Pepsi is the preferred cola in blind taste tests, but it is still Coca-Cola that continues to be the absolute bestseller in the U.S. and the rest of the world. However, since 2004, we have been able to see the short-circuit going on in the head of the cola-drinking masses.

The originator of the experiment was Read Montague of Houston’s Baylor College of Medicine, who must be credited with breaking through to the broader public with the experiment, which was essentially a cola-tasting while being subjected to MRI. Just under seventy volunteers were first asked to taste the competing products in a blind tasting and, just as so often before, Pepsi was the big winner. Pepsi also set off greater activity in the so-called ventral putamen than Coca-Cola. The putamen is an area cradled deep in the brain in the striatum, which is, among other things, a component in the reward system. So, the interpretation was straightforward–the activity meant "this feels good."

In the next series of experiments the subjects tasted colas with visible labels. When the research subjects knew which brown liquid was which, almost all of them suddenly preferred Coca-Cola. They were convinced that the taste of Coca-Cola was far superior to Pepsi. This shift in attitude followed an important change in the brain–this time, the medial prefrontal cortex went into action. The cerebral cortex intervened with its higher cognitive processes and triumphed over the immediate feeling of reward that was evoked by the taste impression. The product that actually tasted worse and provided a poorer physiological reward was viewed as better when the whole identification apparatus and the idea "this is so me" went into action.

The cola experiment, which came out in the journal Neuron, might be said to show that branding is mind over matter. And, of course, this got marketing people to think in a new way. Now they could hope that the methodology of brain research would help to explain how people build up the much sought-after positive branding story. The dream is that researchers with their scanners will discover what has to be done to get the right elements into play to achieve a tenable branding. Storytellingaimed right at the medial prefrontal cortex.
 
I'm guessing you were quoting my post from above. Using the forum's reply tool would things more clear in the future.

So we agree on everything except for 5 and 6. Point 5 was not a point of view. It's a highly debatable topic. That's not a point of view, it's an objective fact as is evidenced by this thread and many others just like. Point 6 can absolutely be hype. History has proven this time and time again. The term "snake oil" is used to describe this very thing. I wish it weren't the case, but it is.

I was posting right after you did and didn’t think anyone would sneak a post in between. Seems like it was clear enough who I was replying to but I’ll do the quotes from now on if it makes it easier. Which I usually do.

Time will show re point 5. To me it’s not debatable because of the reliability, but only in the case of RR bridge the sound difference is big enough to me so I guess it’ll take some time and more proof. By the way Davie504 has 2 basses with Ray Ross bridges on them already. Seen in his videos.

Re point 6... ok people don’t know. We know. But wait, we can’t seem to agree. Who knows...
 
The thing about placebos is you can't tell. It's why we do double blind tests. In your last clips the ray ross bridge is a little louder in all the clips. You may not know you're playing different but something like your excitement of playing your choice may make you play just a bit harder. That makes one clip louder and people will chose that. In real tests you can take the same clip, slightly change the volume of one and people will prefer the louder one and this has been demonstrated in lab conditions. Also the order of the clips will create a clear statistical preference. If you know you're playing your hardware of choice your mindset while playing is different. Things like this are why red guitars are louder than blue ones.

The Pepsi paradox is a great example of how knowing what we are consuming will influence our evaluations. Here's some info on that.

How the Brain Reveals Why We Buy

.... At least that is the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the only (so far) classic study in neuromarketing, a fascinating study of what can be called the Pepsi paradox. For decades, it has been known that Pepsi is the preferred cola in blind taste tests, but it is still Coca-Cola that continues to be the absolute bestseller in the U.S. and the rest of the world. However, since 2004, we have been able to see the short-circuit going on in the head of the cola-drinking masses.

The originator of the experiment was Read Montague of Houston’s Baylor College of Medicine, who must be credited with breaking through to the broader public with the experiment, which was essentially a cola-tasting while being subjected to MRI. Just under seventy volunteers were first asked to taste the competing products in a blind tasting and, just as so often before, Pepsi was the big winner. Pepsi also set off greater activity in the so-called ventral putamen than Coca-Cola. The putamen is an area cradled deep in the brain in the striatum, which is, among other things, a component in the reward system. So, the interpretation was straightforward–the activity meant "this feels good."

In the next series of experiments the subjects tasted colas with visible labels. When the research subjects knew which brown liquid was which, almost all of them suddenly preferred Coca-Cola. They were convinced that the taste of Coca-Cola was far superior to Pepsi. This shift in attitude followed an important change in the brain–this time, the medial prefrontal cortex went into action. The cerebral cortex intervened with its higher cognitive processes and triumphed over the immediate feeling of reward that was evoked by the taste impression. The product that actually tasted worse and provided a poorer physiological reward was viewed as better when the whole identification apparatus and the idea "this is so me" went into action.

The cola experiment, which came out in the journal Neuron, might be said to show that branding is mind over matter. And, of course, this got marketing people to think in a new way. Now they could hope that the methodology of brain research would help to explain how people build up the much sought-after positive branding story. The dream is that researchers with their scanners will discover what has to be done to get the right elements into play to achieve a tenable branding. Storytellingaimed right at the medial prefrontal cortex.


Thanks, very informative.

I bet you that if you did an A/B of Ray Ross and any other bridge, I’d be able to tell you which is which. Wanna play?
 
@Gorn agreed. Do you disagree and state that this bridge doesn’t sound different? Sorry I did think that we all agreed that it does :).
I don't have a conclusion. I do not wish to make any conclusive statements as I simply have no evidence to make them. I will say I've seen nothing that demonstrates it does sound perceptively different and that Ray's statements such as it removes all dead spots are pure BS. There are many strong claims made for this bridge for which I do not see any evidence that is not emotional.

It may sound different, that difference may be better or worse. Other flaws in the bridge like requiring the strings to be loosened to adjust height and intonation make it a fatally flawed design in my opinion. I also don't like the look or the aggressive marketing. I joined NAMM in the '80s and have been to 20 NAMM shows. The claims Ray is making have been made by hundreds of other products. None of these products can be identified by listening without knowing you're using the product in advance. Eventually I just assume each new one will repeat this pattern and I hold this assumption until shown different.
 
Based on what do you think that a cheap made bridge would be as reliable as a reputable one? I’ve seen some welded in screws and rusted broken springs...
I think it's debatable and entirely down to what you're comparing it to. If you're intentionally choosing a bent metal plate bridge found in a bin at a yard sale with a bunch of water damage, then sure I'd venture a guess that the aftermarket model will be more reliable. If you're talking about the much maligned Fender bent plate bridge compared to any high end aftermarket bridge (Hipshot, Babicz, KSM, or even the topical Ray Ross, etc.) then I would not agree that the aftermarket will necessarily be more reliable. Fender bridges are perfectly reliable and in FAR greater numbers than any of the aftermaket bridges, likely greater even than all of their numbers combined. I also wouldn't say that the Fender is more reliable. It's debatable and definitely a case of 'it depends.'
 
I think it's debatable and entirely down to what you're comparing it to. If you're intentionally choosing a bent metal plate bridge found in a bin at a yard sale with a bunch of water damage, then sure I'd venture a guess that the aftermarket model will be more reliable. If you're talking about the much maligned Fender bent plate bridge compared to any high end aftermarket bridge (Hipshot, Babicz, KSM, or even the topical Ray Ross, etc.) then I would not agree that the aftermarket will necessarily be more reliable. Fender bridges are perfectly reliable and in FAR greater numbers than any of the aftermaket bridges, likely greater even than all of their numbers combined. I also wouldn't say that the Fender is more reliable. It's debatable and definitely a case of 'it depends.'


When I was applying the example of cheap garage made bridges, I didn’t mean Fender. I meant ones made abroad, usually somewhere in Asia, costing about a ten for a dollar to produce. The ones you get with a lot of budget basses nowadays, or can buy for about $10-15 on eBay.
My 22 years old Stingray’s bridge has no reliability issues and I wouldn’t expect that from any major brand either.
 
When I was applying the example of cheap garage made bridges, I didn’t mean Fender. I meant ones made abroad, usually somewhere in Asia, costing about a ten for a dollar to produce. The ones you get with a lot of budget basses nowadays, or can buy for about $10-15 on eBay.
My 22 years old Stingray’s bridge has no reliability issues and I wouldn’t expect that from any major brand either.
So like what’s on a Squier, or any of the import Basses made in Cort’s factory. My answer remains unchanged. Most of them are perfectly reliable and their quantities are staggering compared to the aftermarket folks.
 
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I don't have a conclusion. I do not wish to make any conclusive statements as I simply have no evidence to make them. I will say I've seen nothing that demonstrates it does sound perceptively different and that Ray's statements such as it removes all dead spots are pure BS. There are many strong claims made for this bridge for which I do not see any evidence that is not emotional.

It may sound different, that difference may be better or worse. Other flaws in the bridge like requiring the strings to be loosened to adjust height and intonation make it a fatally flawed design in my opinion. I also don't like the look or the aggressive marketing. I joined NAMM in the '80s and have been to 20 NAMM shows. The claims Ray is making have been made by hundreds of other products. None of these products can be identified by listening without knowing you're using the product in advance. Eventually I just assume each new one will repeat this pattern and I hold this assumption until shown different.


I understand where you’re coming from. Also understand that there might be things about it that make it unattractive to you. I also understand if you aren’t hearing a significant difference. I THANK you for saying that you don’t have no evidence to make conclusions.

I genuinely hope that one day you come across one, test it and we talk again, because at this point the debate isn’t gonna produce anything positive really.
 
Absolutely. Let's also factor in your brain telling you that you hear things that you actually don't. That doesn't become a value discussion though as even perceived differences that are actually non-existent can still provide a value to the user.
I agree. And this is a very important point that we often hide from. I think we like to believe that what we hear is solely based on sound waves outside our head. We also like to think we can compare subtleties in tone based on memories of sounds heard months or even years earlier. I don't think we can.

A simple thought experiment for us. Would wearing a blindfold at a concert reduce the enjoyment of the show? Does having a tall guy sitting in front of you blocking the view impact the experience? Does this suggest that what we hear is more than just soundwaves. Even if it is just soundwaves, slightly tilting your head will change them just as moving an amp on stage does.

Having a few beers can make a band sound better. The implications are that we don't hear only soundwaves. Our brains combine many things to create a perception. Accepting this can save you thousands of dollars :)
 
So like what’s on a Squier, or any of the import Basses made in Cort’s factory. My answer remains unchanged. Most of them are perfectly reliable and their quantities are staggering compared to the aftermarket folks.


If that works for you and you go to a gig and have no doubts in your gear, then great. If I ever saw a bridge that costs $10 and I can trust it not to break and to sound good, I’d give it a go too. However for now my preference lies with the bridges in question in this thread, because in my opinion, the package they offer to me is way better than a generic one. You might not see it that way, many people might not see it that way. I’m just saying that there is one who does. Maybe more.
 
I agree. And this is a very important point that we often hide from. I think we like to believe that what we hear is solely based on sound waves outside our head. We also like to think we can compare subtleties in tone based on memories of sounds heard months or even years earlier. I don't think we can.

A simple thought experiment for us. Would wearing a blindfold at a concert reduce the enjoyment of the show? Does having a tall guy sitting in front of you blocking the view impact the experience? Does this suggest that what we hear is more than just soundwaves. Even if it is just soundwaves, slightly tilting your head will change them just as moving an amp on stage does.

Having a few beers can make a band sound better. The implications are that we don't hear only soundwaves. Our brains combine many things to create a perception. Accepting this can save you thousands of dollars :)


Yup, let’s all buy $50 basses and a bottle of Jack and we’ll all sound amazing for a lot less money!
 
Let me put it this way: if any of you goes to a luthier to order a custom bass, would you order the cheapest possible hardware, or woods (cos I know that’s another can of worms), if you could easily afford top components?

Say that hypothetically you have a good budget but you can only spend it on that one build.
 
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Let me put it this way: if any of you goes to a luthier to order a custom bass, would you order the cheapest possible hardware, or woods (cos I know that’s another can of worms), if you could easily afford top components?

Say that hypothetically you have a good budget but you can only spend it on that one build.
41430DEC-A139-40BB-866C-F061125FBF1C.jpeg
 
This is starting to sound like a circular argument of the "tonewood" type.

I know when I heard the before and after tracks that Stefan put out, there was a distinct difference between the old bridge and the Ray Ross bridge. Better or not is completely subjective.

Everything beyond that seems very much a case of diminishing returns...:cautious: