Reading Jazz Chord Charts

[BassyBill]

Just a question from that book.

What is the need to notate B as Cb in G7b9b13?

Is it because some musicians see that G7b9b13 chord as Fmin7b5/G?
Fmin7b5 as F - Ab - Cb - Eb?

View attachment 4690162

But...

Another example of G7b9b13 clearly shows B natural.

View attachment 4690166

I think the first example is just easier to read, and would be especially so in a flat-key context. It means the right hand portion of the chord can be read as a simple ACE triad with all three notes flatted, stacked over the root/m7. Interestingly, there is no fifth in the voicing shown. So, Fm7b5/G is a very direct and useful way to convey that chord voicing.

 

[Papageno]

I think the first example is just easier to read, and would be especially so in a flat-key context. It means the right hand portion of the chord can be read as a simple ACE triad with all three notes flatted, stacked over the root/m7. Interestingly, there is no fifth in the voicing shown. So, Fm7b5/G is a very direct and useful way to convey that chord voicing.

The 5th is frequently ommited in voicings containing a 13 or b13.

There is presumably some benefit in using these kinds of (mis)spellings for pianists who can then rely on patterns they are familiar with, but it is at the expense of the clarity of the harmony, as the functional meaning of the chord tones is hidden. So it's a compromise.

 

[Snarf]

I’ve been trying to be proficient with chord charts but I think my problem is that I don’t really know what I should be doing.

Maybe I’m starting with songs that are too complex for my level. So are there some good tunes that would be good to begin with? My biggest issue is that I’ll start reading and eventually I’ll stop and just play from memory and sometimes in fighting that I’ll make mistakes or lose concentration all together.

Any insight on how to begin and progress?

Heh, looks like this thread got out of control pretty quick.

First of all, what songs are you playing now? You ultimately WANT to stop reading, by the way.

I think what you should do is pick a song, and find a recording of an established "great artist" playing it, then transcribe the bass line, and if you're good with chords, transcribe the harmony as well.

My regret with regard to my jazz education is that I didn't spend enough time learning by ear. I absolutely buried myself in the Real Book, and that was a huge mistake. I became dependent on those charts, and I didn't memorize a whole lot of tunes. You'll also find that if your circle of friends and colleagues includes absolute world-class players as mine does, they've learned the repertoire on a deep level, and a lot of the chord changes in the Real Books are just wrong, and the best players don't play them. I can mostly hang with them, but my repertoire and general flexibility are limited. I only play jazz with them during events where there is a jazz component to an otherwise mostly top 40 gig.

The music that I learn by ear, and by repetition on gigs, is the music that is pure muscle memory to me. I can play any of the top 40 rep in any key. I've transcribed some of them, and have read my transcriptions on gigs, but enough repetition will cement it in your memory. That's not true of the jazz standard rep for me, and one goal that I have is to correct that, and do it by going to recordings. I think it's good to go as far back in time as I can when listening, because as these tunes age, the artists take more and more liberties with them.

So I recommend going to the source: the music. Use some charts if you have to, but try to get away from them as quickly as you can.

As far as knowing what to do, you should learn your harmonic vocabulary: 7th chord arpeggios + inversions. But that's only a very small part of what any good bassist does. It's like learning words without grammar. Everything else can be found in the recorded music. Study the records, and don't get lazy with it. Trust me, I've made the mistake.

Edit at the risk of having way too long a post and possibly posting a controversial opinion: I read somewhere back here someone say you should learn the melody. I don't think that this is totally necessary for bassists. The bass serves a specific role in an ensemble, and while there can be a certain melodic quality to the parts we play, it is not a melody instrument, with exceedingly rare exceptions that get massively amplified on a specialty bass forum. There is no other style of popular music where this is a requirement, and I do not believe jazz to be an exception.

HOWEVER: I think that any well-rounded musician should know some piano or some guitar, and have some ability to play chords and melodies on those instruments.

 

[conttador]

Heh, looks like this thread got out of control pretty quick.

First of all, what songs are you playing now? You ultimately WANT to stop reading, by the way.

I think what you should do is pick a song, and find a recording of an established "great artist" playing it, then transcribe the bass line, and if you're good with chords, transcribe the harmony as well.

My regret with regard to my jazz education is that I didn't spend enough time learning by ear. I absolutely buried myself in the Real Book, and that was a huge mistake. I became dependent on those charts, and I didn't memorize a whole lot of tunes. You'll also find that if your circle of friends and colleagues includes absolute world-class players as mine does, they've learned the repertoire on a deep level, and a lot of the chord changes in the Real Books are just wrong, and the best players don't play them. I can mostly hang with them, but my repertoire and general flexibility are limited. I only play jazz with them during events where there is a jazz component to an otherwise mostly top 40 gig.

The music that I learn by ear, and by repetition on gigs, is the music that is pure muscle memory to me. I can play any of the top 40 rep in any key. I've transcribed some of them, and have read my transcriptions on gigs, but enough repetition will cement it in your memory. That's not true of the jazz standard rep for me, and one goal that I have is to correct that, and do it by going to recordings. I think it's good to go as far back in time as I can when listening, because as these tunes age, the artists take more and more liberties with them.

So I recommend going to the source: the music. Use some charts if you have to, but try to get away from them as quickly as you can.

As far as knowing what to do, you should learn your harmonic vocabulary: 7th chord arpeggios + inversions. But that's only a very small part of what any good bassist does. It's like learning words without grammar. Everything else can be found in the recorded music. Study the records, and don't get lazy with it. Trust me, I've made the mistake.

Edit at the risk of having way too long a post and possibly posting a controversial opinion: I read somewhere back here someone say you should learn the melody. I don't think that this is totally necessary for bassists. The bass serves a specific role in an ensemble, and while there can be a certain melodic quality to the parts we play, it is not a melody instrument, with exceedingly rare exceptions that get massively amplified on a specialty bass forum. There is no other style of popular music where this is a requirement, and I do not believe jazz to be an exception.

HOWEVER: I think that any well-rounded musician should know some piano or some guitar, and have some ability to play chords and melodies on those instruments.

Appreciate your thoughtful response!

I’m working through some Aebersold Play Alongs. These are relatively simple tunes like Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Saint Thomas, Summertime, Maiden Voyage etc. I have started learning the heads to some of these tunes and in the case of say Blue Bossa & Saint Thomas I have found that learning the heads has helped my bass lines sound more melodic & cohesive.

it’s funny that you mention the ear part because there are certain things I hear in bass lines that until recently I hadn’t paid attention to. I can’t exactly explain it but to me, it’s almost like there is a feeling of distance and I’ve put together that this is achieved by using inversions. I’ve also noticed that the different intervals played help the feeling of motion.

What is most rewarding is when I play through tunes and can think in my head if I play these intervals it will give the tube a certain feeling of motion or if I do this inversión it creates this effect. It’s definitely a journey and it becomes more & more rewarding the more I learn.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The 5th is frequently ommited in voicings containing a 13 or b13.

For me, there is a big aural difference when that 13 chord is voiced with/without 11th.

There is presumably some benefit in using these kinds of (mis)spellings for pianists

Since the thread's title is "Reading Jazz Chord Charts,"
Here is an abstract from Antonio Carlos Jobim track, "Corcovado."

My question is about that Ab dim (Ab dim7) notation.
Could it be notated as E7(b9)/G#?

 

[Don Kasper]

Could it be notated as E7(b9)/G#?

Sure. It is functioning as "E7(b9)/G#" but a pianist or guitarist will appreciate seeing Abdim7 (or G#dim7).
A Diminished 7th chord often functions as a Dominant 7b9 chord in First Inversion.
Thanks, Who...!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

It is functioning as "E7(b9)/G#"

Don,

Most of the recorded versions of that song/track have harmony as Amin6 (the bass playing solid A) | Abdim7 and so on, but...
The "original" Carlos Jobim recording has D9(6) and the bass plays D and A.
In the next measure with the cord Abdim7(b13) - Gbb - Ab - Cb - Ebb - Fb - the bass player plays Db and Ab.
What kind of chord do we have here?
Abdim7(b13)/Db


From here:




In another version - with Carlos Jobim on the guitar - Corcovado (Remastered), the bass plays A with Amin6 and Abdim7(b13).

 

[Don Kasper]

What kind of chord do we have here?
Abdim7(b13)/Db

Correct! The Db in the bass hints at that chord voicing sounding as " Db7,b9,#9."

Corcovado (Remastered), the bass plays A with Amin6 and Abdim7(b13).

I'm not understanding your question/comment - the bass plays A under the Amin6, and Ab under the Abdim7......very clear.
Thanks.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I'm not understanding your question/comment - the bass plays A under the Amin6, and Ab under the Abdim7......very clear.

Sorry for my profusely-nebulous question.
While listening (slowly) to the original" Carlos Jobim recording,
the first chord in Verse is D9/6 (even, omitted 5th) and the bass plays D and A, which clearly indicates the D chord (not Amin6(add9))
The second chord in the "original" Jobim's recording (Ex.1) is Abdim7(b13) but the bass plays Db and on Beat3 plays Ab, which indicate that the bass player (somehow) interpreted that chord as "based" on Db.
In short. That second measure has a Abdim7(b13)/Db (in the bass) chord.

All other versions of that song had the bass playing Ab with Abdim7(b13).

For my ears, its a very big aural "issue" whether the bass plays Ab or Db with Abdim7(b13).

I wonder how other musicians would look at the bass player playing that Db note.

 

[Don Kasper]

For my ears, its a very big aural "issue" whether the bass plays Ab or Db with Abdim7(b13).

I wonder how other musicians would look at the bass player playing that Db note.

The bassist has the right to play any note they choose under the Abdim7(b13) voicing (BE CAREFUL!!!!) - if the rest of the group/composer finds it unacceptable, they would say so...esp. on a recording.
The bassist has a very sophisticated and deep knowledge of harmony, and chose to add the Db along with the Ab note choice. I think it is genius and I think it sounds great.
A chord name suggests what NOTE or NOTES might be played under the voicing specified. Great bassists are often great musicians...
IMFO, of course, as always.
Thanks, Who......

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The Db in the bass hints at that chord voicing sounding as " Db7,b9,#9.

Another question for you.
As a Pro Bass/Double Bass player, how much attention do you pay to the extended and/or altered chords while reading chord charts?

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The bassist has a very sophisticated and deep knowledge of harmony, and chose to add the Db along with the Ab note choice. I think it is genius and I think it sounds great.

WOW!
I have not anticipated to see/hear THAT KIND of lavish compliment about other bass players from (slightly-caustic) sarcastic Don.
Bravo!

 

[Don Kasper]

Another question for you.
As a Pro Bass/Double Bass player, how much attention do you pay to the extended and/or altered chords while reading chord charts?
View attachment 4693244 View attachment 4693245

The short answer is - I try to hear and play as deeply into the harmony that is surrounding me. This approach opens more doors than it closes, IMFO.
In certain styles of music, I HEAR, but don't necessarily PLAY as deeply - a pop ballad, for instance - I'll try to play simply and clearly for the benefit of the song.
Thanks.

 

[Don Kasper]

(slightly-caustic) sarcastic Don.

Who you callin' SLIGHTLY??????

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Who you callin' SLIGHTLY??????

A fact-checking revision.
Not SLIGHTLY but "considerably" caustic.

As always, thank you for a nice conversation.

 

[Snarf]

Appreciate your thoughtful response!

I’m working through some Aebersold Play Alongs. These are relatively simple tunes like Autumn Leaves, Blue Bossa, Saint Thomas, Summertime, Maiden Voyage etc. I have started learning the heads to some of these tunes and in the case of say Blue Bossa & Saint Thomas I have found that learning the heads has helped my bass lines sound more melodic & cohesive.

it’s funny that you mention the ear part because there are certain things I hear in bass lines that until recently I hadn’t paid attention to. I can’t exactly explain it but to me, it’s almost like there is a feeling of distance and I’ve put together that this is achieved by using inversions. I’ve also noticed that the different intervals played help the feeling of motion.

What is most rewarding is when I play through tunes and can think in my head if I play these intervals it will give the tube a certain feeling of motion or if I do this inversión it creates this effect. It’s definitely a journey and it becomes more & more rewarding the more I learn.

That's great, man. Yes, deep knowledge of intervals is important, and being able to identify them by ear is key. I'd say you're on the right track. Just be careful not to be TOO melodic with your bass lines. That's what solos are for. You should be creating a deep time feel, particularly with the latin styles. Walking bass can get more melodic, but for tunes like Blue Bossa, beats 1 and 3 need to hit hard, and they have to be chord tones.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Heh, looks like this thread got out of control pretty quick.

First of all, what songs are you playing now? You ultimately WANT to stop reading, by the way.

I think what you should do is pick a song, and find a recording of an established "great artist" playing it, then transcribe the bass line, and if you're good with chords, transcribe the harmony as well.

My regret with regard to my jazz education is that I didn't spend enough time learning by ear. I absolutely buried myself in the Real Book, and that was a huge mistake. I became dependent on those charts, and I didn't memorize a whole lot of tunes. You'll also find that if your circle of friends and colleagues includes absolute world-class players as mine does, they've learned the repertoire on a deep level, and a lot of the chord changes in the Real Books are just wrong, and the best players don't play them. I can mostly hang with them, but my repertoire and general flexibility are limited. I only play jazz with them during events where there is a jazz component to an otherwise mostly top 40 gig.

The music that I learn by ear, and by repetition on gigs, is the music that is pure muscle memory to me. I can play any of the top 40 rep in any key. I've transcribed some of them, and have read my transcriptions on gigs, but enough repetition will cement it in your memory. That's not true of the jazz standard rep for me, and one goal that I have is to correct that, and do it by going to recordings. I think it's good to go as far back in time as I can when listening, because as these tunes age, the artists take more and more liberties with them.

So I recommend going to the source: the music. Use some charts if you have to, but try to get away from them as quickly as you can.

As far as knowing what to do, you should learn your harmonic vocabulary: 7th chord arpeggios + inversions. But that's only a very small part of what any good bassist does. It's like learning words without grammar. Everything else can be found in the recorded music. Study the records, and don't get lazy with it. Trust me, I've made the mistake.

Edit at the risk of having way too long a post and possibly posting a controversial opinion: I read somewhere back here someone say you should learn the melody. I don't think that this is totally necessary for bassists. The bass serves a specific role in an ensemble, and while there can be a certain melodic quality to the parts we play, it is not a melody instrument, with exceedingly rare exceptions that get massively amplified on a specialty bass forum. There is no other style of popular music where this is a requirement, and I do not believe jazz to be an exception.

HOWEVER: I think that any well-rounded musician should know some piano or some guitar, and have some ability to play chords and melodies on those instruments.

This musician agrees with you about getting off the paper.

 

[BassyBill]

Learning songs/changes by ear is great. But you’re never going to learn all of them. For tunes you don’t know from memory, a chord chart is a really useful guide to playing them when you wish to. Sure, the best jazz musicians know a lot of tunes. They can also play a lot of tunes they don’t know from a chart.

 

[Snarf]

Learning songs/changes by ear is great. But you’re never going to learn all of them. For tunes you don’t know from memory, a chord chart is a really useful guide to playing them when you wish to. Sure, the best jazz musicians know a lot of tunes. They can also play a lot of tunes they don’t know from a chart.

I think it's about a common repertoire. You want to know as many tunes as you can, but of course you'll never approach 100%. You need to know as many of the tunes as all the other players know, so that you can all speak the same language as much as possible. You use charts all the time in all genres, but you don't REALLY know the tunes that you're reading. But the more tunes you know by heart, the easier they are to play, and the more freely you're expressing yourself through the music. When you're expressing yourself freely through the music, that's when you're at your best. And the more you're at your best, regardless of musical style, the better you'll be, and you'll be recognized for that.

 

[Malcolm35]

Yep, used fake chord sheet music for 25 years. We hobbits, in my part of the woods, all played from fake chord. We called in a pedal steel and/or lead electric for the "big gigs", and they did not need charts, (and made $100 per gig) but the rest of us mortals relied on something. I did all my Praise with Nashville numbers and Country, Pop, etc. using fake chord.

Only takes three to five minutes to transpose fake chord over to Nashville numbers. I did need the lyrics, so I took fake chord and marked through the A, B, C, with 1, 2, 3's.

Reason for the post. For those that are not using NN, something to think about.

The Nashville Number System Fake Book By Various - Softcover Sheet Music For Guitar, Piano/Keyboard, C Instruments - Buy Print Music HL.143189 | Sheet Music Plus