Double Bass Real Gut Tailgut

[mittenwald]

I have been using a plain gut string for the tailpiece cable for a few weeks now!

I was trying out a nylon tailgut and it snapped a few hours after install! I think it was designed for a newer style tailpiece, but I foolishly tried it anyway.

So with my bass in pieces, and no tailpiece wire to use, I decided to try an old extra fat gut A string I hadn’t used for a long time (don’t worry it’s not an expensive Pistoy!)

I found the instructions on the Gamut website for tying it on using an old gut cello string. The resulting knot looks a bit Frankenstein, but is so far holding well!

The bass is an early 20th century 7/8 Mittenwald and it loves gut strings, the plainer the better.

I’m happy with the resulting sound, it is more open and the bass is vibrating well.

No tuning issues at all, which was a surprise.

The whole bass seems to have more of the gut string vibe now, no loss in volume that I can tell. I think it sounds slightly more like a viol de gamba now for some reason! The effect is subtle though.

I use wound gut E and plain gut A, D and G strings. I would recommend a lot thicker tailgut for steel strings, otherwise it may break

For now it’s a keeper, it looks very stable so I’m hoping it will last a while.

 

[robbielink]

But I want to see the Frankenstein knot!

 

[AGCurry]

Is the gut-string stretching an issue?

 

[mittenwald]

Is the gut-string stretching an issue?

Surprisingly no, it was a well used Gut A string so that could be why it’s not stretching much

 

[mittenwald]

But I want to see the Frankenstein knot!

Here’s a comparison picture of the knot I was trying to do, and the actual B movie version!

There is a definitely an art to it, and I think using a violin string rather than a cello string would have got better results.

On the plus side even though it looks like something found in the pyramids, it will probably last that long

 

[robbielink]

Here’s a comparison picture of the knot I was trying to do, and the actual B movie version!

There is a definitely an art to it, and I think using a violin string rather than a cello string would have got better results.

On the plus side even though it looks like something found in the pyramids, it will probably last that long

Ha! That's a Godzilla knot! You probably could have gotten by with 2 or 3 twists of the bass string and burn the ends so they swell. But at least you've got a good conversation starter and the knot will outlast the tailgut.

 

[mittenwald]

Ha! That's a Godzilla knot! You probably could have gotten by with 2 or 3 twists of the bass string and burn the ends so they swell. But at least you've got a good conversation starter and the knot will outlast the tailgut.

Yeah after that nylon tailpiece cable exploded, I think I got a bit paranoid, when I was creating the gut knot, and did too many loops. The sound of a bridge and tailpiece flying off is not something I want to hear again!

Tying Tail Gut — Gamut Music. Inc.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The holes in your tailpiece are a size for a metal tailgut.
Using a gut A, even with gut strings for the tailpiece is very risky. Tension might be distributed to both strands, but not where the two strands join at the bottom. Friction may help there a bit, but not much.
You put more than three times the normal tension on the tailgut (the sum of the tension of the four strings). Even if you think the tension is distributed it is more than 1.5 times the tension. This is close to breaking tension.

The monofiber nylon tailgut should not be bent too much. They are typically used on tailpieces that end the tailgut on the back without bending it. It might have worked if you have filed the back of the holes towards the bottom so that the bending is less sharp but I’m still not sure if it wouldn’t have broken then.

What you can use without enlarging the holes or getting a different tailpiece is a Kevlar/carbon fiber tailgut. Jonas Lohse in Germany sells them but I’m sure you can also find other sources.
I got one with my Moser adjustable saddle, put a looped knot on the back of the tailpiece and secured it with a knot around each of the loops. That way I can adjust the tailpiece length (only without any tension on it) because it stretches a significant amount under tension.

If you still want to use gut for the tail string, better use a unwound low B or at least an unwound E for it.

But for now, get a Kevlar/carbon fiber tailgut (not very expensive if you get the right distributor) as fast as possible. You don’t want to have your tailgut fail during a concert. And even less if you don’t have a spare that you can mount quickly. A gut knot must dry. That’s not quick.

 

[mittenwald]

If you still want to use gut for the tail string, better use a unwound low B or at least an unwound E for it.

Thanks yeah I know it’s a bit risky, but this gut A is really stiff and thick, it doesn’t look like it will suddenly snap like nylon monofiber.

I check it every day for signs of fraying, all good so far. I get your point about having a backup though, I might get a Kevlar one just in case.

 

[Povl Carstensen]

Efrano in their own store online, sells gut tail guts. I use one. It is thicker than my plain A, but a bit thinner than my E.

 

[RCWilliams]

Spectra cable 3mm or so makes a decent tail gut. It is the stuff that is used to " fly" the cameras over foot ball stadiums etc. very tough very stretch resistant and will hold well with bowline hitch.

 

[JBarz]

I wanted to check in and see how @mittenwald ‘s gut A tailgut has held up?

 

[JBarz]

I ponied up and tied my first one of these last week on my Kay 5 string with a scrap Clef gut A I got bundled in a deal and boy howdy it seems to really have opened up the instrument. Hope it holds - it slipped more than I’d like because the stitching gut was too thick methinks and my afterlength ended up more at 6.5” instead of 7”, but still in the ball park.

 

[Don Hergert]

Interesting observations...

I've only changed out my tailgut once, but have also tightened the new tailgut once, and have changed out the whole endpin assembly once... So my tailpiece has been absolutely loose three times since I've had this DB. Oh and partially loose a couple times adjusting the sound post. When I change strings, I change them one at a time so that really doesn't count.

My observation is that most of the setup gets changed whenever the tailpiece and the endpin and tailgut areas are loose. As such, it's really hard to judge if there are changes of sound, and if there are, what setup change(s) caused those changes of sound.

Factor in how subjective our hearing is after all that work, plus how long it takes for things to settle in again, and it becomes even harder to judge.

I'd also observe that even a 3rd party listener with good hearing will probably have trouble being objective...

... "Yea, sounds good. Time for lunch!"

 

[JBarz]

I’m inclined to agree with you Don, except I think tailgut is a pretty dramatic ingredient in the overall tonal stew. Change the stock rigid tailpiece from an old Kay to literally anything else and try to deny the difference. The real proof in the purely subjective pudding is that this Kay I just changed from braided steel to gut tailgut has risen in ranks in my fleet from the least fun/interesting bass to play to a contender for the #1 slot. The difference arco is similarly pretty dang dramatic. I was having zero fun on this bass before. But again, you’re also right in that this could be attributed at least partially to the change in after length (was too long at closer to 8”, like stock, but now at 6.5”).