Really? Change the key again?

[mellowinman]

If Dirty Lixx cannot perform the song in the original key, we simply do a different song.

Fans notice when you drop the key. Oh sure, you might get away with a half step, or even a whole step, but that's about it. If you change the key a lot, you will have to do your own version of the song.

Nothing sounds lamer than a song with an iconic vocal transposed down to accommodate a mediocre singer.

I once heard a band doing Bee Gees disco-era songs with all vocals a full octave lower. (no falsetto) You have to really use your imagination to believe that doesn't suck.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Nothing sounds lamer than a song with an iconic vocal transposed down to accommodate a mediocre singer.

How about to accommodate a great singer?

I once heard a band doing Bee Gees disco-era songs with all vocals a full octave lower. (no falsetto) You have to really use your imagination to believe that doesn't suck.

Major difference between an octave and the typical whole tone to 4th that most singers are looking for.

 

[Jhengsman]

Well it is obvious they went a octave so they could stay in the same key

 

[SnowCal]

If Dirty Lixx cannot perform the song in the original key, we simply do a different song.

Fans notice when you drop the key. Oh sure, you might get away with a half step, or even a whole step, but that's about it. If you change the key a lot, you will have to do your own version of the song.

Nothing sounds lamer than a song with an iconic vocal transposed down to accommodate a mediocre singer.

I once heard a band doing Bee Gees disco-era songs with all vocals a full octave lower. (no falsetto) You have to really use your imagination to believe that doesn't suck.

Nah. It sticks out because the vocals are a whole octave lower and everything else is the same. It's a major change in the arrangement. Even a drummer would hear that.

But there aren't many in the audience who can tell the difference in going from E to B. There's no frame of reference for them to notice it. Most of them will hum the melody in the wrong key too.

 

[FretlessMainly]

I once heard a band doing Bee Gees disco-era songs with all vocals a full octave lower. (no falsetto) You have to really use your imagination to believe that doesn't suck.

I really have to use my imagination to believe that the Bee Gees disco-era songs don't suck.

 

[ga_edwards]

To be fair, and I'm going to make some enemies saying this, changing key on an a stringed instrument like bass is hardly an accomplishment for 99% of tunes. Especially on a 5 string, it's usually nothing more than a change in your hand positioning. It's the exact same patterns just on a different place on your neck. Being able to change keys on an instrument such as sax, however, is something notable.

So you never, ever play an open B E A D or G note? Really?

 

[Samophlange]

As someone else said...what a snarky thread. Some comments seemed to hit my insta-rage button.

<Rant start>

More than a few posts have come up with the assumption that I can't play a key change.
As some others have posted....that is a HUGE assumption.


I can whine about it if I want. Changing 75% of the tunes seems like bad song choices to me. I'll transpose whatever you want up a step and a half and play the crap out of it if you'd like.
I'll transpose it in my head if its written as well. Or play it in a different clef if you like.
Or maybe put it in different hand positions or choose a string to not use for the entire night to keep things interesting.
I'll take any of the bar tunes we play and switch modes on every chord throughout if you want me to. Then I'll write it out for you so you can play it. Unless you can only read tabs. Then maybe you need to work on your playing a bit.
I'm not here to swap discographies and credentials, so

What difficulty I have is primarily one that involves a very quick learning curve for songs, that seems to be like a tape recorder in my head.
(Photographic hearing? )
So, when it comes time to transpose, I am hearing everything off by the interval of transposition. When I'm playing from memory, my memory is telling me that the tritone or minor second transposition I'm hearing must be wrong. I still play it, but fundamentally (no pun intended) it registers as wrong- always. That part can't seem to change in my brain.
However, it doesn't limit performance. Its totally an internal debate.


Also, I'm not being defensive, I'm just irritated by the automatic response from some posters that its a matter of inability. For some players, it may be. Try to be constructive as opposed to throwing out the typical internet anonymous response that makes you sound like a @##%er and doesn't help those who may be looking at these threads as a learning opportunity.

<Rant over>

The point isn't about what I can or can't play- its about some vocalists not realizing that they can do some work on extending their range and not having the group lear songs in one key then showing up and playing everything in a three or 4 keys.
A heads up is always good, but changing on the fly is fine for many people.
Also, I think there is a larger portion of the population out there that might not realize something has a key change applied to it, but they will realize that they don't like "the way that band sounds".

As mellowinman said:
"Fans notice when you drop the key. Oh sure, you might get away with a half step, or even a whole step, but that's about it. If you change the key a lot, you will have to do your own version of the song.
Nothing sounds lamer than a song with an iconic vocal transposed down to accommodate a mediocre singer."

I get that there are some physical limitation to the voice. Having a background that includes choral instruction helped me figure that out. So, the need to transpose a song is understandable and necessary. As is proper song choice.



Phew. No offense intened towards anyone in the above comments. I was mainly interested in the observations of others concerning the topic.

 

[DWBass]

I'm with you. I don't think anyone said they "CAN'T" transpose. Just that they aren't a fan of it......including me! In my case I mentioned one song that tripped me up and it was a good thing I had my 5 string bass on that gig or the song woulda sounded like crap. If it wasn't for ERB's, vocalists would be up the creek!

 

[jaywa]

I am in the situation where a guitar driven band has become a piano driven band with different singers on any given week. So all of the charts where in guitar friendly keys. As a default setting it is what we start with and now the pianist normally wants to shift flat so it is easier for him to do his thing.

That would suck royally. Flatted keys are the worst, especially on a 4-string. Hope you're getting paid well.

 

[Jhengsman]

That would suck royally. Flatted keys are the worst, especially on a 4-string. Hope you're getting paid well.

Its not a problem for me, I just have a new start point. I know if our guitarist starts something I am thinking CAGED if the pianist Ab, Bb, Eb. Now if the pianist is not playing on any given week the guitar since he would then handle to base chords would probably ask to shift back up to a natural instead of a flat key. He is one that will not use a capo.

 

[lustersilk]

Well, we tune half a step down, which in rock music will often mean we're in Eb, but not always.

OK, I didn't get that you we're tuning 1/2 step down, which is different than transposing. I was in a group recently where half of the music was in Eb. I was using a four string and it didn't sound as good having that Eb almost an octave up. We didn't down tune because that didn't work for the other tunes.

I've started with a five string now and like having the lower options.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

So you never, ever play an open B E A D or G note? Really?

Troll post? Do keys never exist in E A D or G? Do those notes not exist in any other key? News to me.

*edit* I've read your post and the post of mine you quoted several times now, and I must admit I have no clue what the heck you're talking about or where you get the idea that I never play open notes.

 

[mellowinman]

Nothing sounds lamer than a song with an iconic vocal transposed down to accommodate a mediocre singer.

How about to accommodate a great singer?

A great singer who doesn't have the range to pull off the song?

As I said, if you're talking about a singer with a much different voice, and you are transposing the song from E to Bb because that singer sounds best in that key, and you don't try and just pretend it's the same song, by doing something with the arrangement, then you have made the song your own.

But if it's just a song that the singer is not suited to, why not do a different song instead? There are a lot of songs, you know.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

Only a tiny fraction of people have (what's commonly referred to as) perfect pitch or good persistence of pitch, so it's not like when someone says they don't notice the difference or can't tell that a guitar is tuned down a half step that they're lying to you.

The ears of people with great pitch recognition can be offended by something that simply isn't even noticeable to the vast majority of other people. Other peoples lack of your capabilities is probably something to recognize and accept rather than "hate."

Chord quality is the main aspect of music that's emotion evoking. For the vast majority of people, listening to songs played on E and Eb tuned guitars, separated by any real period of time, there will be no appreciable difference. The chords still have the same quality at their respective pitches.

I play in different groups, and one calls for tuning down a half step. I guess I'm glad to not have perfect pitch. That'd be a real burden to constantly be bothered by the sound.

I don't have perfect pitch either, but I do notice it. It's weird because this sort of thing doesn't seem to bother a lot of people (as this thread shows), but it gets me every time.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

A great singer who doesn't have the range to pull of the song?

I've worked with a Juno winner who changed keys regularly depending on where her voice was at that day. The premise that you have to be a "good" singer to pull of any song in the key it was recorded in is seriously flawed.

As I said, if you're talking about a singer with a much different voice, and you are transposing the song from E to Bb because that singer sounds best in that key, and you don't try and just pretend it's the same song, by doing something with the arrangement, then you have made the song your own.

But if it's just a song that the singer is not suited to, why not do a different song instead? There are a lot of songs, you know.

Despite what some people have said nobody notices a key change that puts it in the singer's comfortable range...if anything they'll notice when you DON'T! Jeez people we're talking about covers here! On the obsessing over trivial non-issues scale this is redlining right up there with whether or not you should play it note for note like the recording.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

So what we've learned here today is that some people don't mind transposing songs to match a singer's range, and some people rather keep songs in the original key and if their singer can't hang with it they'll just pick one of the millions of other songs out there to do. Fun thread, but I think we've gone about as far as we can with it!

 

[mellowinman]

I've worked with a Juno winner who changed keys regularly depending on where her voice was at that day. The premise that you have to be a "good" singer to pull of any song in the key it was recorded in is seriously flawed.



Despite what some people have said nobody notices a key change that puts it in the singer's comfortable range...if anything they'll notice when you DON'T! Jeez people we're talking about covers here! On the obsessing over trivial non-issues scale this is redlining right up there with whether or not you should play it note for note like the recording.

As always, we're probably talking about different things. I'm talking about popular rock songs, and you may be talking about something else.

Remember, I'm coming from the perspective of a classic rock cover band.

Too frequently, we assume people are trying to speak far more generally than they really are.

Plus, my opinion is just that; an opinion. Like most things involving music, art or entertainment, it is SUBJECTIVE.

 

[Febs]

Troll post? Do keys never exist in E A D or G? Do those notes not exist in any other key? News to me.

*edit* I've read your post and the post of mine you quoted several times now, and I must admit I have no clue what the heck you're talking about or where you get the idea that I never play open notes.

You said that you can transpose just by moving the position where you are playing a song. That obviously works well when you are playing in a closed position with no open strings, but it does not work as well when you are playing in positions that make use of open strings. That is why he is questioning whether you play open notes.

 

[Vince Klortho]

In my previous band we had a singer that was an older guy who smoked a lot and sounded kind of like Tom Waits which was handy since we played several of his songs. That guy had about a half octave range on a good night and I don't think we played any songs in their original key. When were learning "Play That Funky Music" I think we changed keys five times until we found a good one for him.

 

[ga_edwards]

You said that you can transpose just by moving the position where you are playing a song. That obviously works well when you are playing in a closed position with no open strings, but it does not work as well when you are playing in positions that make use of open strings. That is why he is questioning whether you play open notes.

Thank you. That's my point exactly. If the poster had taken the time to read my earlier post in this thread he would would have seen that I had said that open strings are often an inherent parts of key riffs and lines, transposing doesn't always work very well. Hence my questioning of his claim to transpose on the fly by simply moving position.

Also not sure about the post I have apparently quoted several times? I had only made one previous post.