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Reasonable expectations for buying a used bass?
- Thread starter Scott Lynch
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From my experience, no matter how solid the seller, there's always a good chance there will be something that essentially was either not a big deal to them or simply and honestly wasn't aware of that turns into a problem on the buyer's end.
This is not to be unexpected with a transaction long-distance between two perfect strangers where the buyer never sees it until it arrives. And in my experience, I see lots of buyers who expect what they THINK they bought crash to Earth when the used instrument arrives. You can't let GAS make you fall in love with pictures on a website and stop you from doing your homework, yet it happens all the time.
This is why I ONLY buy used online from real businesses, not some 'online store' that's some guy with a bunch of old basses in his mom's spare bedroom. Real businesses have policies and procedures for problem resolution.
This is not to be unexpected with a transaction long-distance between two perfect strangers where the buyer never sees it until it arrives. And in my experience, I see lots of buyers who expect what they THINK they bought crash to Earth when the used instrument arrives. You can't let GAS make you fall in love with pictures on a website and stop you from doing your homework, yet it happens all the time.
This is why I ONLY buy used online from real businesses, not some 'online store' that's some guy with a bunch of old basses in his mom's spare bedroom. Real businesses have policies and procedures for problem resolution.
I listened to your youtube video and I understand the issue you're having. Was the action of the bass adjusted lower after you received it? If so, maybe the seller had a preference for higher action and never knew that there was a high fret? You've been playing bass for longer than most so it's entirely possible the seller was unaware of the issue or it was just never an issue for them because maybe they never play up at the 17th or so fret on the A & D strings. I know I don't very often need to play those notes.
Is the seller completely unreceptive to a bit of a discount to get the issue fixed or are you just totally soured on the bass and trying to return it?
Is the seller completely unreceptive to a bit of a discount to get the issue fixed or are you just totally soured on the bass and trying to return it?
Your questions are flawed, tbh. Doesn't mean that you're wrong, but you might as well be asking if someone loves puppies and cuteness.
High frets happen. I drove a high end bass from my house (New Orleans) to Nashville and at some point it developed a high fret. I know that it didn't have it when I left, but it had developed one when I played it two days later. It happens, it's an easy fix, and should be considered a part of set up.
I'm not sure what this means - either it has a ski jump, or it does not.
That might not be a ski jump, it might be a set up issue. Again, it's pretty easy to tell if the bass has a ski jump, at least IME. It could be that the tech has issues setting it up and is blaming a ski jump. One way to know for sure is a PLEK, but PLEKs don't come cheap.
If it's an actual ski jump, then that's an issue and should have been disclosed. If the seller didn't realize it, that's bad on them; that doesn't mean that they lied to you or tried to rip you off, they may have legit not been aware, but all the same it's on them to disclose all damage/issues, and the fact is that there was a significant issue that wasn't disclosed. Buyer should take responsibility.
That happened to me - awhile ago I sold a bass and didn't realize that a few of the frets were worn. I made it right, no question about it. It happens.
That being said, I also sold a bass to a guy that tried to say that it had a warped neck, and then proceeded to send me a fake invoice from a fake tech from a real music store.
Ski jumps are easily fixed, but I would classify them as an issue that would need a tech to address. The fact that your tech says "like a ski jump" quite clearly tells me that he's not the person for this bass. If it truly does have a ski jump, I wouldn't trust them to fix it. Just my $.02
A setup WILL drift in transit, especially this time of year as the temp and humidity swings greatly (at least in the US).
Yes and no ... no, it doesn't directly affect that area, but it can affect the overall set up which definitely has an effect on the entire neck and teh way that it plays.
The poll question is obviously going to be yesses.
But that's not the question you are facing.
The concept of "playability issues" can be variable. What constitutes an issue to one person might not to another.
The question is... are the findings you have found significant enough to constitute "item not as described"??... of that, I am not so sure.
But that's not the question you are facing.
The concept of "playability issues" can be variable. What constitutes an issue to one person might not to another.
The question is... are the findings you have found significant enough to constitute "item not as described"??... of that, I am not so sure.
Those “yes” votes are answering a question that doesn’t really address your particular situation, which is why most of these comments are NOT saying; “yes you’re absolutely right in this situation and the seller is in the wrong.”
Read the comments, not the poll numbers. In fact, it seems your description of these events has lead to more questions being asked than answers given among the TB members. Try answering all these questions one by one and reading the responses if you want true feedback from the TalkBass community regarding your particular situation.
I do hope you and the seller can get this resolved amicably.
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Try buying violins or horses online
Or even cars. There's some risk.For your bass, I guess it partly depends on the overall value. A bit of fret work doesn't sound a big deal. And ski jump is something that happens, but if bad then definitely should be disclosed.
I'm sure you are both in good faith, but you don't have the same standards.
Obviously, everyone will agree that "when buying a used instrument, should it arrive as the seller described it", that's not the question.
The question is what should be considered a acceptable for a neck, and what's not? So it's clearly not a Yes/No question.
For example, I'm really not super picky regarding the setup of a neck, I probably wouldn't have even noticed a "sub-millimeter" difference in the frets, as the seller discribes it, but I can imagine someone else would care. It depends both of each individual personality, and experience with previous instuments.
So at the end of the day, I agree with the seller's advice to provide as many details as possible regarding the condition of the instrument before selling, and I would add that the buyer should not hesitate asking detailed questions as well before buying.
Obviously, everyone will agree that "when buying a used instrument, should it arrive as the seller described it", that's not the question.
The question is what should be considered a acceptable for a neck, and what's not? So it's clearly not a Yes/No question.
For example, I'm really not super picky regarding the setup of a neck, I probably wouldn't have even noticed a "sub-millimeter" difference in the frets, as the seller discribes it, but I can imagine someone else would care. It depends both of each individual personality, and experience with previous instuments.
So at the end of the day, I agree with the seller's advice to provide as many details as possible regarding the condition of the instrument before selling, and I would add that the buyer should not hesitate asking detailed questions as well before buying.
The communication of each side (both threads) is interesting too.
I prefer the attitude of the seller, who shows empathy and tries to learn a lesson for himself, rather than OP's rethoric question aimed at proving to the world that he's right and the seller's wrong.
The question in the poll is really problematic. For me it's counter productive, because it makes me stand on the seller's side, even though I haven't seen or played the instrument (obvioulsy).
I prefer the attitude of the seller, who shows empathy and tries to learn a lesson for himself, rather than OP's rethoric question aimed at proving to the world that he's right and the seller's wrong.
The question in the poll is really problematic. For me it's counter productive, because it makes me stand on the seller's side, even though I haven't seen or played the instrument (obvioulsy).
I will likely never purchase another amp, cab or instrument in the future without first playing and inspecting it for at least 15 minutes, and I will likely never sell one without offering the same to a buyer. This admittedly limits my prospects, but unless I were in a position such that it would be physically impossible to try it out AND I happen know and trust the seller, I would rather go without because I don’t have the time nor energy for anymore stress when the gear I already have is doing the job very well.
A lot of players don't play that high on the neck. I sometimes do but only on the g and d strings usually. I prefer the sound played lower down if I can. Could have been an honest oversight by the seller about the 19th fret or happened in transit due to climate fluctuations. An easy fix regardless.
" Signs of a ski jump" means no verified ski jump to me. Hard to hold the seller responsible for a possible maybe.
I'd advise going to a different tech since you're concerned about it.
Hope it works out positively for you.
I voted "yes", but that's mostly for damages. Setup is another thing. I live in central Texas and recently got a bass shipped from Montana. The previous owner had it set up terribly, but the truss rod was perhaps loosened for transport. I also don't expect the climate differences that the instrument experiences over the course of days/hours to be conducive to a good setup. Maybe it even pushes a fret out a notch.
I got a partial refund due to misrepresentation of small damages, which were conveniently not photographed and/or angled in a way to not be visible in pics. That kind of seller behavior is scummy. A high fret, myeah, depends, I guess. Setup is otherwise fairly personal. I play like a lumberjack, where many people have a fine and sensitive touch.
I got a partial refund due to misrepresentation of small damages, which were conveniently not photographed and/or angled in a way to not be visible in pics. That kind of seller behavior is scummy. A high fret, myeah, depends, I guess. Setup is otherwise fairly personal. I play like a lumberjack, where many people have a fine and sensitive touch.
I find your expectations are unreasonable. First its just a single fret - something that can easily happen during transportation. Second, when you press hard it works, so often a friend of mine had buzzing of his guitars and I did not because I press differently on the fret. Also the setup shifts with temperature changes, so when setup higher it could easily not have been an issue at all
The question is. is the bass as described in terms of scratches, electronics, fret problems etc? Is the bass well playable (seems with the exception of the 18th fret yes). So I find it a bit unreasonable from a private seller.
Dressing that frets takes like 2 minutes.
Not sure why the seller should cover a single fret that when pressed hard is working normally.
I don’t expect that a seller would know about a high fret necessarily. Ski jump? They may not know about that either, but that’s potentially another level of complication.
The high fret is not an issue you return over, but ski jump is if it can’t be corrected without surgery and I can’t dial the bass in setup wise. If you bought with paypal goods and services the opinion of the seller is irrelevant, open a case if they push back. You’ll win in a dispute.
In a case like this where there’s some possible gray area I’d probably pay return shipping or split it. Share the pain, reset everything. That’s just the price of doing business.
I looked at the sellers recent classifieds and I’ll add a caveat: was this a pricy high end bass? Because that will be factored into the equation very strongly. My tolerance for stuff is going to be much higher on a $400 bass vs a $1600 bass. He mentions mass produced basses in his post but we talking Squier or AVRI?
The high fret is not an issue you return over, but ski jump is if it can’t be corrected without surgery and I can’t dial the bass in setup wise. If you bought with paypal goods and services the opinion of the seller is irrelevant, open a case if they push back. You’ll win in a dispute.
In a case like this where there’s some possible gray area I’d probably pay return shipping or split it. Share the pain, reset everything. That’s just the price of doing business.
I looked at the sellers recent classifieds and I’ll add a caveat: was this a pricy high end bass? Because that will be factored into the equation very strongly. My tolerance for stuff is going to be much higher on a $400 bass vs a $1600 bass. He mentions mass produced basses in his post but we talking Squier or AVRI?
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buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
It should be shipped as described. However, some people's expectations are different than others - impossible to take sides without seeing actual bass.
This was my thought too, a good old fashion duel. Anything less and I will be completely unsatisfied!Pistols at dawn!!
I think this is a bit of new instrument expectations on a used instrument combined with what you consider undisclosed damage but don’t want to say that explicitly. The seller has played it for awhile with no problems. So from his perspective, there’s nothing wrong with the instrument. I think the best thing in this situation is for a return and buyer pays for return shipping. Now I feel like Judge Judy.
Well, if the seller doesn't actually know too much about basses, then there could be issues they didn't know about.
Like, my situation was different, but my first bass was given/handed-down to me by someone else who never learned bass. Turned out, the bridge pickup didn't work.
Like, my situation was different, but my first bass was given/handed-down to me by someone else who never learned bass. Turned out, the bridge pickup didn't work.
Well, there certainly have been a range of opinions on this issue, and I thank you sincerely for sharing all, and I mean all of them, the ones I agree with just as much as the ones I don't.
After two pages of varying viewpoints it's apparent to me that my expectations really are on the high side compared to some of you for what constitutes acceptable playability of an instrument deemed as such. I'd like to propose a definition, which is this: "When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)". I find this to be fair, and I remain firmly of the opinion that an instrument, whether new, used, vintage, whatever - should be maintained to these standards, among others, to be deemed in fully playable condition.
As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you." I will respect our differences here. This of course presents an unfortunate conundrum, though, which is that the more a definition is open to interpretation, the less reliable it is. That I would never sell or buy at asking price an instrument with the issues demonstrated in my video in my previous post, yet many on here deem it a non-issue, is proof of this. As such, I don't know who I can trust and who I can't. None of us really can. The only practical choice if choosing to continue to use the TB bass marketplace and limit one's risk of disappointment is to lower one's standards to what the consensus deems acceptable.
Given that this has now been elucidated, coupled with the fact that I'm not lowering my standards, the choice for me is simple - no more buying instruments sight unseen from people I don't know to have the same definition of "playability" that I do. Thankfully there are shops to patronize, and the possibility of in person peer-to-peer transactions, of which I have had many and they've all gone wonderfully. Limiting my purchases to those in which I know I can place my trust is the only acceptable move for me going forward.
After two pages of varying viewpoints it's apparent to me that my expectations really are on the high side compared to some of you for what constitutes acceptable playability of an instrument deemed as such. I'd like to propose a definition, which is this: "When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)". I find this to be fair, and I remain firmly of the opinion that an instrument, whether new, used, vintage, whatever - should be maintained to these standards, among others, to be deemed in fully playable condition.
As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you." I will respect our differences here. This of course presents an unfortunate conundrum, though, which is that the more a definition is open to interpretation, the less reliable it is. That I would never sell or buy at asking price an instrument with the issues demonstrated in my video in my previous post, yet many on here deem it a non-issue, is proof of this. As such, I don't know who I can trust and who I can't. None of us really can. The only practical choice if choosing to continue to use the TB bass marketplace and limit one's risk of disappointment is to lower one's standards to what the consensus deems acceptable.
Given that this has now been elucidated, coupled with the fact that I'm not lowering my standards, the choice for me is simple - no more buying instruments sight unseen from people I don't know to have the same definition of "playability" that I do. Thankfully there are shops to patronize, and the possibility of in person peer-to-peer transactions, of which I have had many and they've all gone wonderfully. Limiting my purchases to those in which I know I can place my trust is the only acceptable move for me going forward.
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