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Recommend a second cab

IME, the farther away from the rig you get, the more even the sound from either mixed OR identical cabinets until you reach the critical distance where the room acoustics begin to dominate. This does follow the laws of acoustics, no contradictions. It also matches measurements that I have done over the years. I'm also talking about cabinets that do not approach 1/2-wavelength acoustic center to acosutic center distance which includes all compact and medium sized bass cabinets.

I would sure like to see the math that dispells my experience rather than the batting about of opinions that mixing driver size is always worse, especially in light of the tens of thousands of pro grade applications where the players have chosen a mixed driver size rig. Are they ALL wrong?

Outdoors, there is no room acoustics contribution generally, so the critical distance comment does not apply to this case.
 
There's nothing "wrong" at all with mixing different cabs. Sound reproduction, and MI amplification especially, is all about compromises. Frequency response, tone, power handling, sensitivity, these are just a few of the elements that come into play when building a system, not to mention cost, size, weight, and all the physical parameters that have to be dealt with.

Matching is "safer" yes, if you don't plan on listening to your setup before using it. Since most people do, "safety" is really a non-issue. As far as matching being cheaper, actually the reverse is true. A single great cab that can do everything is typically going to be more expensive than 2 pretty good cabs that both bring something different to the table. Out of my 4 bass cabs, really only one would be appropriate to use in a dual matching setup (a vintage Carvin with either a JBL or EV 15 in it), and I still like it better combined with my Trace 2x10 (which adds a bit more crispness to the highs). The 2x10 is a great cab, but the low end is a bit lacking for use on its own. But it slays with the matching Trace 15. But the Trace 15 by itself doesnt have the high end extension I want, and it weighs like 82 pounds and ONLY fits in the passenger seat of my car, so having 2 of them would not be practical. The other cab is a vintage 2x15 with low power handling (for now, until I replace the drivers with something more modern), and it sounds cool, but its definitely more for that vintage vibe with mainly low end rubbery thump and not that punchy, crisp, modern sound (and it's 4 ohms which makes it difficult to use with other cabs).

You might say, yeah, but for the cost of those 4 cabs, surely you could have 2 higher quality matching cabs that would do everything you would need? Maybe. But in fact I spent less $600 combined on all of them. They're kind of "misfits" (except the Trace pair, which to be honest are 22 years old and a bit road worn albeit awesome sounding) that I was able to pick up for great deals, here and there. I'm not sure I could find a better performing matching pair of cabs for $600 or less than what the 2x10 and either the Trace or Carvin 15 can do (unless I could get another Carvin cab and get a good deal on a NOS EVM 15B). And really, I want for nothing in terms of tone and volume. The Trace 15 has low end for days. You dont have to EQ it in, it's just there because of the cab size and design. So the 2x10 sits happily above it cranking out low mids on up. I mean, the Trace guys back in the day surely designed these cabs to be used together, and sorry, but I have a feeling those dudes are smarter than anyone in this thread, and they put out the legendary gear to prove it.

So use yours ears first, and then engage your brain if somethings not meshing right. obviously, it helps to make sure power handling, impedence, etc... are all appropriate.

Having said that, in this particular case, it might make most sense to go with another identical 1x12. There is something to be said for have 2 small cabs with decent power handling and frequency response. Also I personally don't like to mix consecutively sized drivers (ie 10 and 12 or 12 and 15). You're not as likely to get the common benefits of different sized speakers, the power handling and cone area aren't as likely to match up, and it just looks weird. But a 15/2x10 setup really can be a thing of beauty with the right cabs.
 
Also, I meant to add, in my experience, uneven note to note volumes usually has more to do with the room in question than with the speakers involved. In my home stereo, if I run my sub by itself (a single 15 in a large ported cab), I could play a sequence of tones at the same general level, and each note could be wildly different in percieved volume. Which notes are quieter or louder will depend on the room dimensions, as well the ratios of those dimensions to each other.
 
You certainly can't discount room interactions. I see no need to add to it, though. Plus I just plain haven't liked any rigs where the cabs were mixed. Some sounded better than others, but none of them really hit me like matched cabs or one big cab with all the same drivers. I've tried all my cabs in different combinations, and it never sounds as good as when I use two of the same. I've felt that way even before I knew any of this phasing/comb filtering crap.

:D

But I'm not about to tell someone who's happy with their mixed rig that they're not. If it's working for you, I say have fun and don't worry about it. I will, however, continue to recommend not mixing cabs because that's how I roll. But there is a situation where it can sound excellent...using two different amps. Dial in complimentary tones or work yourself out a clean/dirty setup, and it can sound really good, keep phasing at bay with EQ, and even out volume inconsistencies.
 
You certainly can't discount room interactions. I see no need to add to it, though. Plus I just plain haven't liked any rigs where the cabs were mixed. Some sounded better than others, but none of them really hit me like matched cabs or one big cab with all the same drivers. I've tried all my cabs in different combinations, and it never sounds as good as when I use two of the same. I've felt that way even before I knew any of this phasing/comb filtering crap.

:D

But I'm not about to tell someone who's happy with their mixed rig that they're not. If it's working for you, I say have fun and don't worry about it. I will, however, continue to recommend not mixing cabs because that's how I roll. But there is a situation where it can sound excellent...using two different amps. Dial in complimentary tones or work yourself out a clean/dirty setup, and it can sound really good, keep phasing at bay with EQ, and even out volume inconsistencies.

I'm happy enough with my mixed cab setup but it doesn't hold a candle to biamping it. I'm talking hifi tones.

No doubt you can get a dual amp clean / dirty rig to work well. Bury phasing with other good stuff! Not my bag.

In the case of a single amp you can't EQ what isn't there.
 
About my 2x15+1x15 setup. That all mesa/EV. Both cabs are 8 ohms.
About this whole mismatched driver/cab issue. I certainly don't see the phase issue as being the strongest argument. Any two drivers in the same room will have phase correlation issues. If you have two identical drivers/cabs they will be consistent for frequency response, but you are not warrantied against phase problems by simply having two identical cabinets.
About my JBL/EV rig. The JBL had the big round bottom end that those old drivers are famous for. The EV had that aggressive midrange that those are famous for.
It did sound great out in the audience. I used to let the band Jesus f******* Christ borrow it and they sounded great every place in the room. I checked!
(another reason why you shoulndt be stingy with your gear, it behooves you to see what your amp sounds like when someone else plays it.)
 
When two waves cross each other's path, even if they are identical, they won't just disappear. They'll set up standing waves where they are interfering provided they are identical. Beyond that they will continue on their path. There will be no sound wave cancellation.


If one holds fast to something, one should understand it.
 
You really should just get a matching cab to what you already have when looking to add another separate cab...it's a good rule of thumb. As others have said sometimes mixing different cab brands and speaker configurations does not pan out well, however you may try it and find you like it.
 
About my 2x15+1x15 setup. That all mesa/EV. Both cabs are 8 ohms.

I'm struggling to understand why anyone would do this. Of the three speakers involved, the one in the single cab would always be twice as loud as the other two. And if you turned up your amp to the point where the 115 was just under its max excursion limit, the other two wouldn't even be breaking a sweat. It all just strikes me as willfully inefficient.

Although, I distinctly recall Chef saying once that he really liked his GK Neo 112 on top of the Neo 212. Said it sounded great, but I still have the same questions...
 
I played mixed cab rigs for many years, thought it sounded good, and it did, I just hadn't experienced "better". <----a subjective term there.;)

I also didn't just read the science, accept it as gospel and repeat it. I've tried this myself many times, to train the ears...notice differences....understand what the sound is doing, using speakers from Carvin, Eden, Peavey, SWR, as well as some DIY's. Some do mix better than others, but in each case, the matched rig sounded more even/consistent, no matter who made the speakers.


I'm sure with some digging, we can come up with some applets, charts and graphs, and other techy stuff to show this. If somebody wants to hear it for themselves, get a wireless, or let someone sit in on bass and walk around the room, or outside, left to right, front to back, and listen.
 
If the single speaker has twice the impedence as the dual speaker cab, as it likely would, then theoretically all drivers are getting the same amount of power. People do the same thing with an 8 ohm 2x10 and 4 ohm 4x10.
 
If the single speaker has twice the impedence as the dual speaker cab, as it likely would, then theoretically all drivers are getting the same amount of power. People do the same thing with an 8 ohm 2x10 and 4 ohm 4x10.

Yeah, but he specifically said the 115 and the 215 were both 8 ohms. The speakers would definitely not be receiving the same amount of power.
 
I would sure like to see the math that dispells my experience rather than the batting about of opinions that mixing driver size is always worse, especially in light of the tens of thousands of pro grade applications where the players have chosen a mixed driver size rig. Are they ALL wrong?
.
'Wrong' isn't the question. 'Best possible' is. Of those 'tens of thousands' how many do you think actually tried various pairs of matched cabs, as opposed to just putting two cabs together and assuming that was as good as could be had. Perhaps in many cases it was, but without trying all the various permutations there's no way of knowing. AFAIK none of the matched cab advocates have ever said that mixed cabs can't work well. They only state that, unless you can try before you buy, you have no way of knowing if mixing will give the best result.
About my JBL/EV rig. The JBL had the big round bottom end that those old drivers are famous for. The EV had that aggressive midrange that those are famous for.
Sometimes things work. OTOH one of my favorite drinks is Bailey's Irish Cream. Another is lime juice. So they should be great mixed together, right? Wrong. The result is cottage cheese. :spit:
 
Yeah, but he specifically said the 115 and the 215 were both 8 ohms. The speakers would definitely not be receiving the same amount of power.

This is true in some cases although, with 3 speakers pumping, maybe they didn't have to turn up the amp high enough to push them past their limits, maybe they sounded more musical when crossing the distortion threshold. Having that high a stack also puts one driver almost right in your ear.

Part of me also wants to say if all 3 drivers are in parallel, it'd be the same as if they were all in one box and power would be distributed evenly anyway. Somebody can correct me that if it's not right.
 
'Wrong' isn't the question. 'Best possible' is. Of those 'tens of thousands' how many do you think actually tried various pairs of matched cabs, as opposed to just putting two cabs together and assuming that was as good as could be had. Perhaps in many cases it was, but without trying all the various permutations there's no way of knowing. AFAIK none of the matched cab advocates have ever said that mixed cabs can't work well. They only state that, unless you can try before you buy, you have no way of knowing if mixing will give the best result.
Sometimes things work. OTOH one of my favorite drinks is Bailey's Irish Cream. Another is lime juice. So they should be great mixed together, right? Wrong. The result is cottage cheese. :spit:

Friend of mine has a saying. "I like beer and I like ice cream, but I don't like beer and ice cream".
 
RickenBoogie said:
...and I've run many 210/15 rigs. But if someone comes in here to TB looking for advice on adding a cab to an existing rig, another matched cab is not only the safest bet, but sound advice. Don't have to get all pantie-wadded over it.

+1 for the advice, the reasoning, and the use of the term "pantie-wadded"! (So, +3 total(
 

Do a summed phase response with identical cabinets (which have to be at different acoustic centers because they can's exist sharinbg the same physical space) and you will get an identical real world plot due to the short time offset between sources (that aren't even point sources).

What appears to be valid in theory does not translate to practice when ALL of the variables are taken into account. We are not talking about 2 point sources in space, we are talking about 2 sources that are anything but point sources and they do not occupy the same acoustic center.

This is where understanding the engineering "big picture" is critical to understanding why many folks have good results even though (pure) theory might seem to contradict. If you are going to use theory, don't simplify it to the point of being unrepresentative of the real world devices and environment you are proporting to model.
 
1) Which scenario is more likely to have problematic phase issues?

a) a rig with two matched cabinets

b) a rig with two mismatched cabinets

2) In which scenario is it more likely that one cab reaches max excursion well before the other one does?

a) a rig with matched cabinets

b) a rig with mismatched cabinets



Are the answers to questions 1 and 2 above both "b"?