Double Bass Recording with a David Gage Realist

[Ed Fuqua]

Mike you get a great sound on the few recordings I've heard, but my experience (limited though it is) has been exactly the opposite. The sound of the pickup direct has only added an unpleasant edge and this weird false "plummy ness"to the sound, like playing through a Polytone with the DARK switch on but all the treble rolled up. That's not the sound I'm going for.

I'm sure your experience is different, but for me it's always the lazy engineers who want the direct line. They never ask me what I want to do, the ones who do ask never seem to have a problem getting me the sound I want using mics.

 

[Ric Vice]

.......... As far as using a Gage pickup direct---I wouldn't---it sounds like crap direct.

IMHO the Realist has such a hot signal it tends not to sound very good direct, that said I did a recording yesterday into a Mac using the line out on my Walter Woods MI-400-8 with the Realist as the source. It sounded very good, but that hasn't been my experience in past outings. The last time I tried this using an Avalon U5 it didn't sound so good.


Ric

 

[Mike Arnopol]

My problem with the Realist is its unevenness and resonant peaks. I guess what it all comes down to is having the sound you want in your head and using any means necessary to accomplish that. I guess the reason that I can use some direct sound is that the Barbera or Full Circle on my bass give the and evenness that compliment the mic sound.Maybe only about 20% direct. There is very little timbre coming from the direct---all of that is rolled off. You don't hear the direct at all---only that the sound is a bit fuller and a tiny bit more legato. It's the same as far as live sound for me. Using the Doubler with a Full Circle and an ATM35 I use the mic more for the natural sounding mids and highs and roll off the same with the pickup.
By the way Ed, off to Augusta, GA in a few days.

 

[Paul Warburton]

I guess what it all comes down to is having the sound you want in your head and using any means necessary to accomplish that.

Hey Mike, that said it all.

I know you disagreed with me, and I'm more than fine with that and all, but after seeing you on your great clips a question or two have occurred to me.
You ain't gonna hurt me are you? I mean, with the tattoos and the muscles and such, a guy like that could hurt a guy? Are we cool? Will I be OK? I only have a few more years...can I live them out without something nasty happening?
Seriously, you have a great sound and I don't think anybody here looks down on any tools we can use to get "that sound" that speaks to us, especially PU's and amps. Personally, I use a 12" Poytone with an Underwood because of my five string.
On most gigs I put it directly behind the back of my bass on a KMD stand. That way the bass acts as a kind of baffle and the sound comes out around the bass. The thing I like about this is that I'm so close to the amp I'm hearing the worst possible results in terms of volume and highs and lows. Maybe wrongly, I figure the combination of the ambient sound of the amp and the true sound of the bass works for everybody concerned.
I am shooting for no amp eventually, though. Just that wood.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Give Matt a shout when you get there, he's playing at Westbou Festival Wednesday night....

 

[Marc Piane]

+1 to everything above. There is no 'right' way.

2 points

1. The best mics and pickups in the hands of an engineer that doesn't know how to mix a DB ain't gonna matter. I had a guy get a great sound on a pop recording I did by just using some AKG kick mic. Point is it is the ears not the gear.

2. The fun part about the less is more approach is it puts more onus on the performers. The engineer can't do as much in mixdown so everything has to be on in the session.

 

[eheveronsmith]

+1 to everything above. There is no 'right' way.

2 points

1. The best mics and pickups in the hands of an engineer that doesn't know how to mix a DB ain't gonna matter. I had a guy get a great sound on a pop recording I did by just using some AKG kick mic. Point is it is the ears not the gear.

2. The fun part about the less is more approach is it puts more onus on the performers. The engineer can't do as much in mixdown so everything has to be on in the session.

hell yeah, man. that is absolutely the right attitude to have. and as an engineer who considers himself a musician first, I really appreciate people like you when I'm in the studio.

I've only been playing bass for about 1.5 years, but I've been recording for probably... 9 or so. and playing music (trombone) for 16. anyway. in the studio, particularly a well-equipped studio with good acoustics (and possibly an iso booth, or at least some serious baffles), I would never bother with a pickup. heck, as long as I can get some healthy level without the drums interfering, the idea of a pickup won't even enter my mind!

recording live, however... that's another matter entirely.
in my experience as an engineer, upright bass is the most difficult thing to mic live. a good condenser mic sounds beautiful, but the amount of bleed from the drums usually makes it unusable, except on solos. and I've recorded christian mcbride at the blue note; even a dude with that much sound and projection, we couldn't use our main condenser mic for most of the sound. there are baffles and such that you can use (like the reflexion filter), but the two things that saved us on that recording were 1. the pickup signal and 2. a tiny-diaphragm condenser (sm98) stuffed in the f-hole. usually sounds like ****, but at least it's better than "30% bass / 70% drums."

again, haven't been playing bass that long, relatively speaking, but the best PICKUP that I have heard (as an engineer) is the realist. most of the others are pretty awful. (especially that dang fishman.)

 

[Bijoux]

well,... maybe your bass doesn't sound like crap. But it's not the sound of your bass! Now your bass sounds like an old Italian bass, but I guess Paul was trying to make a point that it's NOT the sound of your bass. If you like it. Cool!

I disagree. I usually use a stereo pair of mics in front of the bridge. And take a a direct from either a Barbera or Full Circle. I use just a little of the direct with highs and mids rolled off. It gives just a bit more fundamental and a bit more legato sound. The multiple Grammy winning engineer Jim Anderson introduced me to this. It's called cheating. My bass sounds darker this way. More like an Italian bass. The bass I recorded on all of the Patricia Barber stuff is a 50's hybrid Sherl and Roth. Somebody regraduated the top too thin. So the bass is too fragile but sounds great. I've had some amazing basses in the past, but this one records and amplifies better. If you listen to the recordings it sounds like a huge Italian bass. There isn't a hint of direct sound, but it's there. you just don't hear the obnoxious highs or mids. I played a concert opposite John Pattitucci and he had heard some of the recordings and wanted to see my bass. He said, "I wanted to see the bass you recorded on" and couldn't believe that it was this piece of crap bass. My new Golia bass requires less direct in the mix because it is really huge and dark sounding. But I still use just a little. I've had a standing offer from the Naim audiophile recording label to do a recording but have passed because they use only two mics to record the whole group. I've never liked the bass sounds on these recordings. All of the best bass sounds from the best bassists that I have in my head are all close miked. As far as using a Gage pickup direct---I wouldn't---it sounds like crap direct.

 

[LM Bass]

One of the things I like best about my pickup is that it comes OFF the bass really easily. For orchestra gigs (and drummer-less gigs) it's always off, and for studio I make sure it isn't even in the bag before I head out the door.

The best engineer in Vancouver, Shawn Pierce, got right down in front of my bass and moved his ears around til he found the best spots. That's what we're looking for in an engineer! With my old French bass, it sounds best with a condensor up near my right hand and about 10" away, combined with a kick drum mic way down near the tailpiece. I always ask for this setup in the studio, and I'm happy with the result.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Egregious and much posted studio pic....

 

[deaf pea]

FWIW, I recently had the good fortune to record Roberto Vally on electric fretted bass, electric fretless bass and his Kolstein Busetto Model Travel Bass for the new CD "Pegadito al Corazon" by Joan Sebastian . . .

I know that we're not talking about the slab stuff here . . .

For the Kolstein travel bass I used an ElectroVoice RE-20 for the main signal (aimed at bridge level pointing to the G-string side F hole) and used a little bit of his mounted Full circle AND also a little bit of his mounted Realist.

I don't really remember how much of the pickups' signal was finally used, but I DO remember that the ability of the musician was much more important to the final "sound" than any of the technicalities . . .

 

[Paul Warburton]

Same kind of deal as Ed's, here...

 

[Marc Piane]