• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Replacements for Bartolini 9S pickups

Could anyone help me with finding good replacements for my Bartolini 9S pickups?
I like how they sound, but in my bass there is some interplay with the screws, that catch vibrations elsewhere on the bass, effectively making the pickups microphonic. I've been searching for non-ferrous screws with the right dimensions, but no luck yet. A different set of the same pickups gave the same result.
(I made a thread about this a few years ago)

So what I'm looking for are J-pickups that sound as close as possible to Bartolini 9S ('Original Single Coil J-Bass'), that don't have the interplay with ferrous screws.

Thanks!
 
Could anyone help me with finding good replacements for my Bartolini 9S pickups?
I like how they sound, but in my bass there is some interplay with the screws, that catch vibrations elsewhere on the bass, effectively making the pickups microphonic. I've been searching for non-ferrous screws with the right dimensions, but no luck yet. A different set of the same pickups gave the same result.
(I made a thread about this a few years ago)

So what I'm looking for are J-pickups that sound as close as possible to Bartolini 9S ('Original Single Coil J-Bass'), that don't have the interplay with ferrous screws.

Thanks!
Do you use springs or foam to hold the pickups up? This sounds like an issue that sometimes happens when using springs, and in any case strategically placed foam should dampen most microphonics in the pickup cavities.
 
Do you use springs or foam to hold the pickups up? This sounds like an issue that sometimes happens when using springs, and in any case strategically placed foam should dampen most microphonics in the pickup cavities.
No springs, just foam under the pickups. It's really the interaction between the screws and the pickups.
When the pickups are connected, but not installed yet, they are not microphonic. Touching it with anything non-ferrous is inaudible through the amp. Touching it with something ferrous (like a screw) is very audible, like when you touch a polepiece of a 'normal' J-pickup. And not just the top, but all around, as if the pickup is one big polepiece.
So when the pickups are installed in the body with ferrous screws, they pick up every vibration in the body. For instance, the ringing of the part of the strings between the top nut and the tuners can be heard, even when damping the strings in the playing area.
As I mentioned, a different set gave the same results, and finding non-ferrous screws in the right dimensions seems impossible.
 
Have you tried any other pickups in the bass to verify that it's actually the pickups?
Only other pickups of exactly the same type, giving the same results. I would like to try different pickups, but I would want them to sound as close as possible to these ones. I don't have spare pickups to try out.
That's why I put my question in the first post of this thread.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dwizum
It's such an unusual problem, and having handled probably a couple dozen Bartolini Jazz pickups, I've never seen anything remotely like this that I could attribute to their pickup designs. I'm curious if it's something with the bass itself (mounting screw holes misaligned, shielding or wiring somehow, etc) and not the pickups.

I don't personally know of any pickups that are really close in tone to those Barts. I know this isn't the specific advice you were asking, but if I were in your shoes, I'd go watch the classifieds for a day or two and buy a few sets of Jazz pickups to try. Then, sell the ones you don't like on the classifieds. Often, you can break even doing this so it doesn't really cost anything to have several sets available to try. At the very least this would help you narrow down if it's actually the pickups and not something else.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobaMosfett
In my opinion it should be an unusual problem, but it occurred in 2 sets of the 9S pickups, and someone from Bartolini wrote me that "This can be the case with all pickups in J-bass shells because the screws are within the sensing area." So I don't know what to say about that, except that it's pretty frustrating.
My very first idea a few years back was to replace the pickups with the same type, so I asked my dealer to order a new set. When he got them, I went to the store to let him replace them (I'm hopeless with soldering). The new pickups were wired, and a test showed they were not microphonic. Putting a screw through the hole (pickup outside the bass) however made a big noise, like the noise you hear when touching a polepiece with the string. So screw holes or shielding were not involved yet. The fact that both sets show the same behavior suggests they were not malfunctioning. The bass came from Japan, and I am in the Netherlands; it seems unlikely to me that I happen to run into two sets with the same defect in that way.

... having handled probably a couple dozen Bartolini Jazz pickups...

Do you remember wether you handled these specific Bartolini pickups (9S - 'Original Single Coil J-Bass')?
 
The thing is, the screws are in the sensing area of pretty much ALL jazz pickups. Which, for better or worse, still causes me to lean towards "it's not the pickups." The irony of this whole thread is that Bartolini are one of the few brands that pots their Jazz pickups in a solid block of epoxy, which is about as good as it gets for avoiding microphonics.

I've had basses that caused noise when touching mounting screws - but it was more of a buzz than a thump. The cause was incorrectly installed shielding (it wasn't grounded.) Touching the screw puts a conductor between your body and the un-grounded shielding in the cavity, which basically turns the patch of shielding right under the pickup into a noise antenna and you get buzz/hum as a result. But that sounds different than the problem you're experiencing.

The 9S is a true single coil blade style pickup. I have had a few sets of them. If you want something that sounds similar, a good place to start would be other single coil blade style pickups. The Nordstrand Big J Blade is a similar construction, you could try the warm and woolly version. I haven't tried it but that's probably where I would start.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobaMosfett
...The Nordstrand Big J Blade is a similar construction, you could try the warm and woolly version...
Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate it!

How firm is the foam? Could the pickup be moving as you play ( pushed down and popping up )? Pickup
Too close to the string and the string taps it as you play?
The pickups are quite firm in place between the foam and the screws, and not very close to the strings.
 
I tend to agree with @dwizum that without an example of a pickup in your bass acting non-microphonically that its hard to conclude that the specific pickup is the issue and not something else about the bass. For example, I have a Rickenbacker 4004 bass with incredibly tight pickup cavities that makes any pickup I've tried in it act microphonically. I actually really like that aspect of that bass, but could see how some people could find it to be irritating. I've used some of the exact pickups in other basses without the same microphonic response, but in that particular bass the pickup covers are tight in contact with the wood and so every little vibration is transferred (and I wouldn't change a thing).

Are the pickup routes in your bass also abnormally tight so that they are making contact with the pickup shell much of the way around? In this case it could be possible that a more traditional Jazz pickup (with the coil and cover being separate pieces) could work better for you in that vibrations directly into the pickup covers have some little air/space to buffer them from the actual pickup coil, assisted by some foam padding underneath (not too tight, leaving some looseness to absorb vibration).

FWIW, I have used the Bartolini 9J pickups in basses in the past without ever noticing any excess microphonics.

When I have had hardware that is being "picked up" by some pickup coil in the past (what I think Bartolini was describing in your communication with them), I am usually hearing the tone of the object itself (heard as a fixed ringing tone from a spring or screw in tandem with my playing) rather than an increase in direct body noises- this is usually cured with some foam dampening around the hardware as I originally suggested, which mutes the tone of the object the same way foam mutes under your strings mute overtones. The pickup in this case is sensing the vibration of the ferrous object in its vicinity and amplifying it just like it does the strings. It is normal to hear some noise when tapping on the mounting screws of a Jazz pickup, particularly ones with bar magnets, for the reason Bartolini mentioned- the mounting screws are right up next to the sensing part of the coils by design. This behavior isn't microphonics though. Actual body microphonics are usually a result of the body directly vibrating the coil windings or a loose magnet of the pickup (literally turning the coil into a sort of weak diaphragm like a microphone where the coils themselves are moving in relation to the magnetic field) rather than anything to do with ferrous hardware.

If you are convinced it is the screws that are the issue, then for testing purposes try taping the pickups in temporarily (holding the height with foam) and see if the issue remains
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobaMosfett
I tend to agree with @dwizum that without an example of a pickup in your bass acting non-microphonically that its hard to conclude that the specific pickup is the issue and not something else about the bass. For example, I have a Rickenbacker 4004 bass with incredibly tight pickup cavities that makes any pickup I've tried in it act microphonically. I actually really like that aspect of that bass, but could see how some people could find it to be irritating. I've used some of the exact pickups in other basses without the same microphonic response, but in that particular bass the pickup covers are tight in contact with the wood and so every little vibration is transferred (and I wouldn't change a thing).

Are the pickup routes in your bass also abnormally tight so that they are making contact with the pickup shell much of the way around? In this case it could be possible that a more traditional Jazz pickup (with the coil and cover being separate pieces) could work better for you in that vibrations directly into the pickup covers have some little air/space to buffer them from the actual pickup coil, assisted by some foam padding underneath (not too tight, leaving some looseness to absorb vibration).

FWIW, I have used the Bartolini 9J pickups in basses in the past without ever noticing any excess microphonics.

When I have had hardware that is being "picked up" by some pickup coil in the past (what I think Bartolini was describing in your communication with them), I am usually hearing the tone of the object itself (heard as a fixed ringing tone from a spring or screw in tandem with my playing) rather than an increase in direct body noises- this is usually cured with some foam dampening around the hardware as I originally suggested, which mutes the tone of the object the same way foam mutes under your strings mute overtones. The pickup in this case is sensing the vibration of the ferrous object in its vicinity and amplifying it just like it does the strings. It is normal to hear some noise when tapping on the mounting screws of a Jazz pickup, particularly ones with bar magnets, for the reason Bartolini mentioned- the mounting screws are right up next to the sensing part of the coils by design. This behavior isn't microphonics though. Actual body microphonics are usually a result of the body directly vibrating the coil windings or a loose magnet of the pickup (literally turning the coil into a sort of weak diaphragm like a microphone where the coils themselves are moving in relation to the magnetic field) rather than anything to do with ferrous hardware.

If you are convinced it is the screws that are the issue, then for testing purposes try taping the pickups in temporarily (holding the height with foam) and see if the issue remains

Thank you for your thorough reply!
I agree that we know nothing for sure; I would very much like to try different pickups in this bass, as well as these pickups with a different bass. But I don't have extra pickups or basses to do that at the moment.

However, I also feel like I'm not getting across why I think the problem is in the pickup/screw combination. (Maybe because English is not my main language)
Another example: pickups wired in the bass, bass connected to an amp, holding a pickup in your hand. Lightly tapping the pickup with a fingernail does not make a sound through the amp. Putting a screw through one of the holes makes a loud sound. Leaving the screw and tapping again with a fingernail (the pickup, not the screw!) is clearly audible. Installing the pickup and making sure the pickups and screws are not moving freely: tapping still audible.

Taping the pickups in place would be a good test, I agree! I will try that out this week.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Freaklight
Are the pickup routes in your bass also abnormally tight so that they are making contact with the pickup shell much of the way around?

I think you are right with that in the general sense of why microphonics can happen, but Bartolini J's are fairly undersized compared to most other brands of J, and they tend to have bigger radiuses on the corners - if a Bart J is tight in a pocket, I can guarantee that most other brands of pickups likely won't even fit in the pocket at all.

However, I also feel like I'm not getting across why I think the problem is in the pickup/screw combination. (Maybe because English is not my main language)
Another example: pickups wired in the bass, bass connected to an amp, holding a pickup in your hand. Lightly tapping the pickup with a fingernail does not make a sound through the amp. Putting a screw through one of the holes makes a loud sound. Leaving the screw and tapping again with a fingernail (the pickup, not the screw!) is clearly audible. Installing the pickup and making sure the pickups and screws are not moving freely: tapping still audible.

Thank you for entertaining us and explaining what you're seeing. I know we're probably not telling you the things you were expecting to hear but hopefully it's helpful.

But, to be honest, that sounds like potentially normal behavior to me, though it's hard to understand the magnitude of problems like this when written in text. We don't know how loud the noises are you're talking about, relatively speaking. Any chance you can get a recording of those different scenarios for us? That could give us an idea of how bad the noise is which might help us understand it.

Any magnetically permeable object placed near a pickup, and then tapped, will make a noise of some kind. If you wire a pickup to an output jack (no bass involved) and then slide a screw into one of the mounting holes, and then tap on the screw - it'll make a sound via the pickup. Or if you tape a screw next to a pickup and then tap it, you get a noise. Even if you put something permeable near a pickup, fix it firmly in place, and then tap the pickup itself (causing the pickup coil to move relative to the other object), you'll get a noise. It's just a matter of how much noise in terms of if it's "normal" or "a problem."

But any time there's a permeable material in the magnetic field that vibrates relative to the coil, you get a signal. That's why things like the "tightness" of the foam under the pickup are important, and why testing the pickup held loose in your hand (versus installed in the bass) is not meaningful. The rigidity of the pickup's mounting impacts how readily it vibrates when it's tapped. A pickup that's really loose, or very tight, or held in your hand away from the bass, can cause enough vibrations to cause an issue. Mounting hardware that's loose, or binding on the pickup, can cause issues. And so on.

The only way it can literally be the pickup's fault is if the internal parts of the pickup move relative to each other when the pickup is tapped. That is very possible, and happens with some pickup designs (sometimes on purpose, to an extent). The actual coil wire in a loosely wound coil can vibrate when tapped, or loose poles or other parts can vibrate. That's why pickups get potted, to lock all the internal parts together as a solid unit. But as mentioned, Bartolini pickups are essentially the most heavily potted design possible, so they're definitely not going to be microphonic in the sense of the pickup itself having a problem (unless you were to break one very badly, but that doesn't seem to be the case here).
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobaMosfett
I know we're probably not telling you the things you were expecting to hear but hopefully it's helpful.

But, to be honest, that sounds like potentially normal behavior to me, though it's hard to understand the magnitude of problems like this when written in text. We don't know how loud the noises are you're talking about, relatively speaking. Any chance you can get a recording of those different scenarios for us? That could give us an idea of how bad the noise is which might help us understand it.

You're all very helpful, thank you!
I'm not sure if I'm able to make recordings to illustrate things, but I guess the magnitude is the key here. I have a number of basses, and had more in the past. This is the first time I have one with these pickups (it's a Moon JJ), and the first time that this behavior is of a problematic magnitude to me. I might be fastidious, but my dealer was surprised of the noise as well, and squealing noises on stage can't be a good sign...
I currently have one other bass with J-type pickups, and the builder used non-ferrous (stainless steel, I think) screws wich do not react to magnets. I can hear no microphonic-like behavior at all. Unfortunately these screws will not fit in the screw-holes of the Bartolini's, so I can not test if this will fix the issue.

This week I will try to isolate/mute the screws with some material I ordered (heat shrink, electrical tape and silicone tubing). If that is not satisfactory, I will make one last attempt to obtain non-ferrous screws in the right dimensions. If all fails, I will give those Nordstrands a try.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dwizum
Okay, squealing on stage is a sign that there is some unacceptable microphonic behavior. I would definitely try different mounting methods - check that the pickups aren't binding in the cavities, and try different foam and/or springs under them. Make sure the pickups aren't binding on the screws too.

Stainless screws are definitely available in sizes that will fit the bartolinis. Probably brass as well. By spec they will take #3 or #4 screws. If the stainless screws you have now are close to fitting you can drill the mounting holes out slightly to try.

Good luck!
 
  • Like
Reactions: BobaMosfett
Thanks! I'm not sure what you mean by pickups binding on the screws. Would putting electrical tape around the screws so they don't touch the pickups be what you mean?

Anyway, the heat shrink didn't go through the holes, so that didn't work. I did put silicone tubing around the screws under the pickups. I hoped that this would dampen the screws, but I hear no improvement. Later this week I'll get some electrical tape.
What DID help was taking out the screws and taping the pickups in the body, wich was an earlier suggestion.
I recorded some rumbling on the strings while muting them. With the screws you can hear (with headphones!) the ringing of the strings between the nut and the tuners, and with the tape that's gone.
Screws: Dropbox - BartsScrews.mp3 - Simplify your life
Tape: Dropbox - BartsTaped.mp3 - Simplify your life
 
Are the pickup routes in your bass also abnormally tight so that they are making contact with the pickup shell much of the way around? In this case it could be possible that a more traditional Jazz pickup (with the coil and cover being separate pieces) could work better for you in that vibrations directly into the pickup covers have some little air/space to buffer them from the actual pickup coil, assisted by some foam padding underneath (not too tight, leaving some looseness to absorb vibration).

Any bass where the pickups are held up by foam, the thing holding them down is the screws, which are, by definition, hard mounted to the wood - the foam does NOT isolate the pickup - it pushes the pickup against the screws, which are hard coupled to the body wood. If a pickup is microphonic, it's microphonic; the tightness of the cavities isn't going to change how much vibration they experience.
 
Any bass where the pickups are held up by foam, the thing holding them down is the screws, which are, by definition, hard mounted to the wood - the foam does NOT isolate the pickup - it pushes the pickup against the screws, which are hard coupled to the body wood. If a pickup is microphonic, it's microphonic; the tightness of the cavities isn't going to change how much vibration they experience.
Foam (or springs) in any normal use case are acting as a suspension (the screws themselves are not holding the pickup up), which absolutely absorbs some of the force and vibration applied against them (unless they are compacted to be as dense as the pickup or screw material itself). Pickups that are directly jammed into the wood benefit from none of this damping effect and experience the full force of vibrations happening from the body. Almost every typical pickup is going to be able to exhibit some microphonics, but some mounting methods/situations absolutely make the symptoms worse (and over time will tend to loosen the coils more as well).
 
Foam (or springs) in any normal use case are acting as a suspension (the screws themselves are not holding the pickup up), which absolutely absorbs some of the force and vibration applied against them (unless they are compacted to be as dense as the pickup or screw material itself).

We disagree. Unless the bass is vibrating enough that the pickups are buzzing off the screws - intermittently losing contact with them (that'd be an awful lot of vibration), the pickups are very much hard mounted to the body. I know it looks like the foam would isolate them, but the screws bypass that. I work in a company where we have shock mounts (vibration isolation) in a lot of our products - your mental picture is one that is common with such things, but if you examine the forces enough, you'll eventually realize that the foam in this case doesn't isolate against small vibration.
 
If a pickup is microphonic, it's microphonic; the tightness of the cavities isn't going to change how much vibration they experience.

Maybe you've just never experienced that being the cause, and that's why you believe it's not possible? Or maybe we're using the word microphonic to mean different things.

It doesn't take much of a "thump" from a finger to displace a pickup such that it loses contact with the screws if the foam is super soft. Stiffer foam and the issue goes away.

If you're in upstate NY, I would invite you to stop by my shop. I have a (cheap knockoff) Jazz bass in my rack right now that has microphonic pickups due to poor mounting. And I just gave back an SG that had pickups with microphonic "thump" because the springs were way too soft - the SG is a case of too loose and the Jazz bass has the pickups literally wedged into too-small cavities. One of my own personal basses was pretty noisy until I put stiffer foam under it, I would happily reverse that change and put the old foam back if that would help you believe it's possible for mounting to cause issues. None of the pickups involved in these instruments are "microphonic" on their own.