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Responsibility for license?

So then the promoter should have no problem striking out that part of the contract, right?

While I certainly don't disagree with Febs suggestion nor the one above, the practical reality is that I often face a party on the other side that is trying to handle the contract themselves so they don't have to pay a lawyer and they are very resistant to making changes simply for that reason. In their mind, they told you "X" won't be a problem and so there's no need to change the contract.

At some point, you have to decide how hard you want to push or whether you're going to walk away and I'm just saying that there can be many, many reasons why the other side won't make a change to their agreement and you'll have to decide if the failure to make the change is worth passing on the opportunity.

I personally don't see that as the case here.

MA
 
Do I agree that the Artist is making a covenant it won’t perform without full compliance? Yes, in a strictly legal sense.

Am I concerned? Nope.

My lack of concern is based on both general and specific observations. In general, I’ve had (and currently have) many clients that have records, songs, videos, and all sorts of other intellectual property that’s floating around (even on a major level) without all the loose ends tied up. I’ve also had clients that don’t have everything buttoned up with respect to their ventures, partnerships, and other business plans, but have proceeded anyway. Is there a risk? Of course.

However, I’ve come to realize over the years that it’s just part of the music business (which is very different from film/tv projects which tend to be more buttoned up) and the likelihood of getting sued (or doing the suing) is very, very low. Therefore, while I always do careful risk analysis in any particular situation, I’ve just found that, absent some pretty specific facts or “hunches”, I think the risk of lawsuits is very, very low and I feel that some lawyers (without pointing fingers at any TB posters) simply over-lawyer the situations for their clients based on legal theories rather than practical realities. Clients need to get on with their careers. Sometimes that involves various risks (e.g., band disputes over songs, names, tracks,, etc.). There’s considerably more explanation that goes into what I’m discussing, but I’ll have to leave it at that for now.

More specifically to this situation, it sounds like a good gig for the OP and I think the practical realities far outweigh the legal possibilities. In fact, the agreement may have a clause that says loser pays all legal fees if there’s a fight (i.e., shifts the U.S. rule that parties pay their own costs). If that were the case, and the organizer/promoter came to my office and told me this story, and asked me whether they should sue the band to indemnify them for the public performance fees, I think you could argue it would be malpractice to tell the organizer to move forward based on what I believe would be a high risk of awarding legal fees to the other side:

Judge: “Let me see if I understand this correctly. Plaintiff is suing defendant for damages incurred by Plaintiff when (a) Plaintiff was made aware of their responsibility to obtain a license (or should have known about it) and (b) Plaintiff refused to get the necessary licenses they are responsible for and (c) as a result of Plaintiff’s failure to obtain the necessary licenses, Plaintiff had to pay costs that almost any other radio station, restaurant, bar, store, etc. must pay and (d) Plaintiff seeks to shift the burden of paying those costs to Defendant because of Defendant’s failure to be in compliance with the laws that are the responsibility of Plaintiff. Do I have that right?”

Not a fact scenario I’d want to put before a judge, particularly if my client could be responsible for paying the legal bills of the other party.

Nope, not concerned.
MA

Thank you very much for your replies which have shed some considerable light on this situation. :)

And to the OP... congrats on a good gig! :bassist:
 
RIAA has nothing to do with this discussion.

MA

Ah, yes. Sorry, I meant BMI/ASCAP.

But thank you for your input just the same. Interesting.

I suppose ASCAP is far more forgiving of cover musicians than I ever realized. From what everyone is saying, the burden seems to be firmly on the shoulders of the organizer/venue owner in these situations.

It still strikes me as a strange notion that the musician or band can get off the hook so easily for performing copyrighted intellectual property without anyone procuring permission or license.
 
Ah, yes. Sorry, I meant BMI/ASCAP.

But thank you for your input just the same. Interesting.

I suppose ASCAP is far more forgiving of cover musicians than I ever realized. From what everyone is saying, the burden seems to be firmly on the shoulders of the organizer/venue owner in these situations.

It still strikes me as a strange notion that the musician or band can get off the hook so easily for performing copyrighted intellectual property without anyone procuring permission or license.
This was covered in the OP, quoted from the ASCAP FAQ:
"Some people mistakenly assume that musicians and entertainers must obtain licenses to perform copyrighted music or that businesses where music is performed can shift their responsibility to musicians or entertainers. The law says all who participate in, or are responsible for, performances of music are legally responsible. Since it is the business owner who obtains the ultimate benefit from the performance, it is the business owner who obtains the license. Music license fees are one of the many costs of doing business."

It's not that no one is responsible, it's just that it's the venues responsibility. The only thing that gave me pause about the contract was the whole indemnification thing, but MA has sorted that out for us. ;)
 
It still strikes me as a strange notion that the musician or band can get off the hook so easily for performing copyrighted intellectual property without anyone procuring permission or license.

That’s a broad statement and not accurate.

What we’re talking about here concerns live performances that benefit a business (in this case, a festival). Since the business is the one deriving the benefit from the live performances, it makes sense to have them be responsible for the license. This is particularly true since the business owners, for the most part, only have to deal with 3 organizations in order to cover just about any music that’s going to be played at their business.

Conversely, can you imagine the licensing nightmare if every song had be licensed from individuals? Not a pretty picture.

While not necessarily perfect (or in some peoples’ mind, fair), the system in place is probably the right one.

MA
 
The only thing that gave me pause about the contract was the whole indemnification thing, but MA has sorted that out for us. ;)

At the risk of stating the obvious, what I've written is just my opinion. As is plainly obvious, there are 9 Supreme Court judges who can read the same file, obtain the best researchers, and spend considerable time pondering their decisions with 5 of the judges voting one way and 4 of the judges voting the other.

With no interest in raising a political debate, my only point is that lawyers can certainly have different opinions. I'm just sharing mine.

MA
 
My wife is an attorney practicing, among other things, entertainment law and intellectual property law for a large regional firm. I let her read this thread. She believes that most of the judges / arbitrations she has faced would find that the language in this clause obligates the musicians to provide the proper licenseing. Her advice, in contrast to MA, would be to strike said language, ESPECIALLY if the venue has assured the artist that they are in compliance.

In my professional life, I've seen a lot of lawsuits and dealt with a lot of attorneys. I can't remember a time I was ever advised by counsel that signing a questionable indemnity was ok because the client verbally advised that "everything was taken care of." I HAVE seen a large number of lawsuits over similar indemnities.
 
So? All that proves is you had to bring in your woman to help you fight your battles.

Where's mommy?

:p

That's just pitiful, chief. Is that honestly the best you can do? My wife is an accomplished attorney with 20 years experience in the field in question. Her opinion was pertinent to the conversation, so I asked.

It's sad that you have nothing to add to this conversation except incorrect advice and childish insults. Really earning that "Christian Praise and Worship Bassist" number, huh......
 
My wife is an attorney practicing, among other things, entertainment law and intellectual property law for a large regional firm. I let her read this thread. She believes that most of the judges / arbitrations she has faced would find that the language in this clause obligates the musicians to provide the proper licenseing.

Noted. Respectfully disagree. Is your wife a litigator?

Her advice, in contrast to MA, would be to strike said language, ESPECIALLY if the venue has assured the artist that they are in compliance.

I didn't say the language shouldn't come out. I'm just saying that if the festival organizer wouldn't remove it and the OP was sitting in my office, I'd encourage the OP to move forward. Those are dice I'd suggest rolling. That's all. Would your wife recommend the OP not do the gig if the provision remained in?

In my professional life, I've seen a lot of lawsuits and dealt with a lot of attorneys.

What do you mean you’ve “seen a lot of lawsuits”? Have you ever seen (or do you even know of) one that even remotely approaches this fact scenario?

I can't remember a time I was ever advised by counsel that signing a questionable indemnity was ok because the client verbally advised that "everything was taken care of."

Not sure if that was directed at me, but, again, I didn’t say that. Not sure what kind of contracts you’re talking about, but every single day for many years I do the best I can with the leverage I have on any particular deal for songwriters, producers, artists, etc. Thankfully, most of my clients give me considerable leverage. However, there are some new songwriters, producers, or artists who are asked to sign contracts that contain language which isn’t favorable. If every one of those individuals waited for a music industry related contract (e.g., a recording agreement, a management agreement, a publishing agreement, a live performance agreement, etc.) to be purged of all language that was unfavorable or even “questionable” (whatever that means), there would be many, many careers that never moved forward.

By way of example, every single major-label recording agreement has language that basically says the label can demand immediate reimbursement under certain circumstances (e.g., the artist incurs recording costs in excess of the approved budget). If a lawyer unfamiliar with the real world of the music industry reads that language, they may think “Holy ****! My client could go over budget by $100,000 and have to write a check to the label!”

However, in the real world, two things happen. First off, if the artist is like the overwhelming number of artists on a label roster, they aren’t going to have the cash. This begets blood-turnip analysis.

Second, if it’s a successful artist, there is no way the label is going to ask them to write the check. It ain’t gonna happen. They want to keep successful artists happy. Besides, from a practical standpoint, the label can still recoup the money from future royalties (which is what happens).

Finally, and most importantly, in my opinion, I have talked to many label lawyers over the years and used to ask them if they ever enforced the immediate reimbursement language. Not one of them said they had. I then asked: “Why not just take it out?”. They said that making changes to their agreement requires all kinds of internal corporate review and discussion which they didn’t view as a valuable use of their time (given other pressing issues) since the language is NEVER enforced. God help the talent that’s repped by a lawyer who would keep their client from signing a deal for that reason.

Living in the real world,
MA
 
That’s a broad statement and not accurate.

What we’re talking about here concerns live performances that benefit a business (in this case, a festival). Since the business is the one deriving the benefit from the live performances, it makes sense to have them be responsible for the license. This is particularly true since the business owners, for the most part, only have to deal with 3 organizations in order to cover just about any music that’s going to be played at their business.

Conversely, can you imagine the licensing nightmare if every song had be licensed from individuals? Not a pretty picture.

While not necessarily perfect (or some peoples’ mind, fair), the system in place is probably the right one.

MA

For the sake of clarification, does the band or musician who receives financial compensation for the entertainment provided not constitute a business or corporate body that has profited from the unauthorized performance of copyrighted material?

Some nights, I'm absolutely certain my band made more than the bar owner.
 
My wife is an attorney practicing, among other things, entertainment law and intellectual property law for a large regional firm. I let her read this thread. She believes that most of the judges / arbitrations she has faced would find that the language in this clause obligates the musicians to provide the proper licenseing. Her advice, in contrast to MA, would be to strike said language, ESPECIALLY if the venue has assured the artist that they are in compliance. In my professional life, I've seen a lot of lawsuits and dealt with a lot of attorneys. I can't remember a time I was ever advised by counsel that signing a questionable indemnity was ok because the client verbally advised that "everything was taken care of." I HAVE seen a large number of lawsuits over similar indemnities.

Sorry, I have to agree with the advice of Music Attorney and would sign the contract . The risk factor is very low and the reward factor could be high. I am a VP of a 280 plus employee company that deals in the entertainment industry. In my case I am in the motion picture side of the business and have to deal with attorneys and contracts weekly. In my 30 years of experience, I have seen many attorneys who get overly focused on legal issues based on legal theory and not the real life practical side of the transaction. Yes, an attorney may be 100% correct from a "legal theory prospective" but at the same time, their concearns may actually muddy the waters on the bottom line when considering the "risk vs reward" business perspective. Also, in my experience, some of these same attorneys would like nit pick issues based on legal theroy and of course bill accordingly. What I like about Music Attorney's advice is he looking at the practical side of the matter and has evaluated the "risk vs reward." He has come to the conclusion not to worry about it. He sounds like my kind of attorney.
 
For the sake of clarification, does the band or musician who receives financial compensation for the entertainment provided not constitute a business or corporate body that has profited from the unauthorized performance of copyrighted material?

Some nights, I'm absolutely certain my band made more than the bar owner.

All participants in copyright infringement are jointly liable as tortfeasors. Therefore, the people who are liable for copyright infringement include the people who perform the unlicensed music as well as the people who (1) had the right and ability to control the infringing activity and (2) had a direct financial interest in that activity. However, people who are suing for infringement are usually looking to get paid and guess who the Plaintiff is going to view as the “deep pocket”?

I’m not here to debate whether it’s “fair” that the venue owners are the ones getting sued or if the venue owners should pay the public performance fees. I’m just saying that’s the way it is <insert Bruce Hornsby calling me to sue for use of his lyrics>

I know that in rare instances tribute bands have been sued for live performances of cover songs, but if you read those fact scenarios, I think you would begin to get a sense of why the band was sued and why a cover band at a festival under these circumstances is not going to get sued.

The other thing I know, is that I have never had a client get sued for following my advice. To be clear, I’ve had clients get sued, but I can’t help them if they don’t tell me they’ve included a sample on a hit record.

MA
 
nit pick issues based on legal theroy and of course bill accordingly

Yep, you can pretty quickly tell which lawyers are getting paid hourly (i.e., in no hurry to get the deal done) and percentage lawyers (i.e., motivated to close quickly since their fee doesn't change based on the amount of work they do ;-)

Not sure about your business, but I find that the "nit pickers" can sometimes kill the buzz on a deal in the music industry. That is,

1. A&R rep finds a band they're excited about.
2. A&R rep gets everyone at the label excited about the band.
3. Label decides to sign band.
4. Negotiations go on for 6 months while lawyer "nit picks" the issues.
5. Buzz/Excitement at the label subsides. Something newer, shinier, easier to work with comes along.

Does anything similar happen on your end?

Best,
MA
 
Aside from all the legal and practical stuff, surely it can't hurt to ask to have that section crossed out.

I think it could be asked maybe once. If they say yes, great!
But as mentioned earlier in this thread, the promoter might be using a generic boiler plate contract and the promoter might not fully understand all the legal content in their own contract. They may prefer to play it on the safe side and not strick anything from the documents. This could put the band at risk of the tail is now wagging the dog. If they say no to stiking the clause, what will the band do? Now the band has to make a decision. Get into a pissing contest with the promoter over a very low risk legal issue, or as some may call it, cave in to the promoter's contract. This is were egos on both sides start coming into play and sometimes it gets ulgy. One thing for sure, either one of those choices are not going to making anyone feel good in the end. There is also the risk that the the promoter may now think of the band as a "your making me work too hard and giving me a headach" trouble maker and it would be just easier to pass on the band as there are plenty of other good cover bands that would love to have the gig. Many times business decisions, in this case the promoters, are made and constantly adjusted to take the course of least resistance.
 
Noted. Respectfully disagree. Is your wife a litigator?

Yep.

I didn't say the language shouldn't come out. I'm just saying that if the festival organizer wouldn't remove it and the OP was sitting in my office, I'd encourage the OP to move forward. Those are dice I'd suggest rolling. That's all. Would your wife recommend the OP not do the gig if the provision remained in?

Yep.



What do you mean you’ve “seen a lot of lawsuits”? Have you ever seen (or do you even know of) one that even remotely approaches this fact scenario?

It means I have been directly involved in dozens of lawsuits in which one party provided an indemnity to another party for the actions of a third party, then were sued for performance under that indemnity. It happens all the time, actually.



Not sure if that was directed at me, but, again, I didn’t say that. Not sure what kind of contracts you’re talking about, but every single day for many years I do the best I can with the leverage I have on any particular deal for songwriters, producers, artists, etc. Thankfully, most of my clients give me considerable leverage. However, there are some new songwriters, producers, or artists who are asked to sign contracts that contain language which isn’t favorable. If every one of those individuals waited for a music industry related contract (e.g., a recording agreement, a management agreement, a publishing agreement, a live performance agreement, etc.) to be purged of all language that was unfavorable or even “questionable” (whatever that means), there would be many, many careers that never moved forward.

By way of example, every single major-label recording agreement has language that basically says the label can demand immediate reimbursement under certain circumstances (e.g., the artist incurs recording costs in excess of the approved budget). If a lawyer unfamiliar with the real world of the music industry reads that language, they may think “Holy ****! My client could go over budget by $100,000 and have to write a check to the label!”

However, in the real world, two things happen. First off, if the artist is like the overwhelming number of artists on a label roster, they aren’t going to have the cash. This begets blood-turnip analysis.

Second, if it’s a successful artist, there is no way the label is going to ask them to write the check. It ain’t gonna happen. They want to keep successful artists happy. Besides, from a practical standpoint, the label can still recoup the money from future royalties (which is what happens).

Finally, and most importantly, in my opinion, I have talked to many label lawyers over the years and used to ask them if they ever enforced the immediate reimbursement language. Not one of them said they had. I then asked: “Why not just take it out?”. They said that making changes to their agreement requires all kinds of internal corporate review and discussion which they didn’t view as a valuable use of their time (given other pressing issues) since the language is NEVER enforced. God help the talent that’s repped by a lawyer who would keep their client from signing a deal for that reason.

Living in the real world,

Yet, we're not talking about a contract to start a career for some starry-eyed wanna be (and their attorney). Rather, we're talking about a single performance contract for a cover band.
 
Yep, you can pretty quickly tell which lawyers are getting paid hourly (i.e., in no hurry to get the deal done) and percentage lawyers (i.e., motivated to close quickly since their fee doesn't change based on the amount of work they do ;-)

Not sure about your business, but I find that the "nit pickers" can sometimes kill the buzz on a deal in the music industry. That is,

1. A&R rep finds a band they're excited about.
2. A&R rep gets everyone at the label excited about the band.
3. Label decides to sign band.
4. Negotiations go on for 6 months while lawyer "nit picks" the issues.
5. Buzz/Excitement at the label subsides. Something newer, shinier, easier to work with comes along.

Does anything similar happen on your end?

Best,
MA

Along the same lines, you can tell which lawyers are advocates for their clients versus those that are slaves to the transaction, usually aligning loyalty more with the opposite side of the table in an effort to "make the deal happen." Around these parts, most of the attorneys that cater to young, uneducated new artists fall in the latter category.

I've seen it in my line of work. You have the attorneys that just want the deal to get done, so they are thought of favorably by everyone, but especially the other side of table. And the documents created by these types of attorneys work fine.....until the largest recession in 70 years hits. Then you start finding the problems with those documents, and suffering the repercussions. Remarkably, as you come out of recessions like this, those "nit-picker" attorneys are the ones that start getting all the business from more educated clients.
 
OK... been doing some more digging and I'm making some calls and e-mails today to clear some things up (because this is an area of interest and importance to me) but here is what I have found so far.

I was reading an article from a performing act (Hudson & Saleeby) who have written an article for the purpose of general info based on their 20+ years of experience with licensing issues while performing at different events all over the country. From their article:
Who gets the license? Licenses are geared toward the people who stand to gain the most from using music at their establishment or event. There is no license available to musicians and performers. According to information we obtained from the licensing organizations, unless the venue is also the promoter of an event, they are not expected to license the music being used at their venue. It is usually the organization, company, promoter, or meeting planner who is responsible. Different types of license agreements are granted for different types of music users. Generally, the "Convention, Trade Show, Exposition" - type license agreement is the one you need either to get for yourself, or make sure the organizations or companies you are planning events for have in place. Even if you are planning an event in a hotel, restaurant, club, convention center, or other leased space, the agreement the establishment has for their own use may not cover the music you use at your private event.

This statement is confirmed by the absence of information on the websites of BMI, ASCAP, or SEASAC concerning obtaining a license for musicians/performers/bands. I also watched an interview with the VP of ASCAP (link to the interview is posted below) and not one time was licencing for individual musicians/performers or bands even hinted at. Everything I have found concerning this topic states that both U.S. Copyright and case law establishes that the venue or promoter is responsible for the licensing.

It seems to me that if the contract is attempting to pass onus for licensing on to the band then it is asking them to do something that is impossible.

Hudson & Salebee article: http://www.hudson-saleeby.com/hsarticlelicensing.phtml

Interview with Todd Brabec: