Double Bass Ribbon Mic for Recording?

[TMiyagawa]

My first dealing with Samar was modifying an old AKG c1000 for me. At the time their main gig was winding custom transformers for old ribbon mics and they did repairs and mods. The c1000 mod they did was so impressive that I decided to take the plunge when the VL37 came out (around 700 bucks it seems). It was a preorder thing and I waited about 9 months for the mic. I was impressed from day 1. The cool thing is every one they make is identical so a VL37 I bought 3 years ago is an exact stereo microphone to my original VL37. And that's mainly what I use them for now, stereo recording acoustic groups. Personally, for my own double bass recording I usually prefer an LDC off the bridge and and SDC off the fingerboard. However, if you really love ribbons for double bass, a Samar will not let you down, I promise. And, yeah, the manufacturing is amazing.

Thanks a ton for sharing your experiences with the VL37 and Samar Audio Design, bcamp! Could you perhaps elaborate a bit on why you prefer the LDC and SDC combo for your own double bass recordings, vs. a VL37? Is this because you are recording mostly pizzacotto?

 

[garrett2]

Just got a Samar AL95 and it sounds shockingly good. Took a long time though, ordered in December received in April.

 

[shwashwa]

Just got a Samar AL95 and it sounds shockingly good. Took a long time though, ordered in December received in April.

how's the high end on it?

 

[crd]

The Shure KSM313 is an incredible mic. I absolutely love it on bass. It works great in so-so acoustic spaces. I would never use a ribbon in a nice studio but for at home recording I don't think it gets better than the KSM313. Also, super sturdy. It's nice to know it can be easily repaired.

 

[garrett2]

how's the high end on it?

Sounds good to me but I've only recorded myself playing solo bass.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Been doing a fair amount of recording at home since the pandemic has arrived. While the electric is fairly straightforward; plug in, get a sound, go...the upright has some interesting components to address in the recording process.

Thus far, I’ve had a great deal of success blending signals from a large diaphragm condenser mic and the pickup on the bass. I’ve found about a 70/30 ratio of mic/PU gives me a very pleasing sound. While the mic provides a great deal of detail, the pickup can fill in the cracks just a little while providing a strong fundamental.

Recently, while doing some research on the matter, I came across this fantastic article on the internet from Sweetwater addressing the subject of mic choices for upright bass.

Choosing the Best Mic for Upright Bass - with Sound Samples | Sweetwater

One of the audio samples was with a ribbon mic. I really liked the creamy tone it got and was my favorite among the other samples they posted. I’m wondering if anyone here on TB has used a ribbon mic for recording and what their experience with it was like. Any pointers on placement, EQ, maintenance/care for the mic?

As always, thanks for your input.

I recorded a few albums with ribbons and thought the sound was beefy and supportive. One was with an old RCA and another with stereo Coles. I’m a big U47 fan and the next Rhiannon Giddens album was recorded with a beautiful specimen of a mic at Criterion Studios in Miami. But I just now remember getting some nice sounds out of a AEA ribbon somewhere along the line. Ribbons are cool.

 

[Ric Vice]

Once on a recording we tried a Octava Ribbion Microphone, I can't recall the model( maybe a ML-52-02). While it sounded lovely, I can't say that I was more impressed with the tone quality than say
a Line Audio CM4 that's significantly less expensive and doesn't require the baffle's and isolation that the Ocktava does. Just my take of course. I think every bassist finds a microphone
that they can work with and that becomes their favorite regardless of whether it's a ribbon, condenser, or dynamic. Just my take of course.

 

[AGCurry]

Once on a recording we tried a Octava Ribbion Microphone, I can't recall the model( maybe a ML-52-02). While it sounded lovely, I can't say that I was more impressed with the tone quality than say
a Line Audio CM4 that's significantly less expensive and doesn't require the baffle's and isolation that the Ocktava does. Just my take of course. I think every bassist finds a microphone
that they can work with and that becomes their favorite regardless of whether it's a ribbon, condenser, or dynamic. Just my take of course.

The Oktava ML-52 is not a great example of a ribbon mic. I agree with your second point!

 

[Ric Vice]

The Oktava ML-52 is not a great example of a ribbon mic. I agree with your second point!

Thanks, I'm one of those folks who doesn't necessarily buy into the adage that Ribbon Mic's or Large Condensers like the Neumann U 47 will work magic for everyone.
Practically speaking, there's a sweet spot, where any respectable mic will reproduce what your instrument sounds live. Just my take however. The more expensive microphones
have nuance and capture details, thats undeniable. Many times once the tracks are mixed and mastered a lot of that nuance and detail evaporate.

 

[Astronaut]

Been doing a fair amount of recording at home since the pandemic has arrived. While the electric is fairly straightforward; plug in, get a sound, go...the upright has some interesting components to address in the recording process.

Thus far, I’ve had a great deal of success blending signals from a large diaphragm condenser mic and the pickup on the bass. I’ve found about a 70/30 ratio of mic/PU gives me a very pleasing sound. While the mic provides a great deal of detail, the pickup can fill in the cracks just a little while providing a strong fundamental.

Recently, while doing some research on the matter, I came across this fantastic article on the internet from Sweetwater addressing the subject of mic choices for upright bass.

Choosing the Best Mic for Upright Bass - with Sound Samples | Sweetwater

One of the audio samples was with a ribbon mic. I really liked the creamy tone it got and was my favorite among the other samples they posted. I’m wondering if anyone here on TB has used a ribbon mic for recording and what their experience with it was like. Any pointers on placement, EQ, maintenance/care for the mic?

As always, thanks for your input.

Creamy tone…

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks, I'm one of those folks who doesn't necessarily buy into the adage that Ribbon Mic's or Large Condensers like the Neumann U 47 will work magic for everyone.
Practically speaking, there's a sweet spot, where any respectable mic will reproduce what your instrument sounds live. Just my take however. The more expensive microphones
have nuance and capture details, thats undeniable. Many times once the tracks are mixed and mastered a lot of that nuance and detail evaporate.

Selecting a mic is not always about trying to accurately capturing an exact copy of the sound source. Often mics are selected because they give the sound their own unique mojo.

AFAIK, a general characteristic of ribbons is they mellow out the highs. Close mic'ing an upright tends to be brighter than what you will hear in the distance. So I could see how this quality would potentially be useful. The idea is you get the sound from the mic and mic technique, rather than tweaking the tone controls of your channel strip. AFAIK, using the tone controls adds more phase variance.

 

[Sam Reese]

Malcolm Chisholm was a big fan of velocity (ribbon) microphones and believed that if everything was recorded using ribbons, it would sound best. Bob Moore recorded with a ribbon mic. Both these guys were the shizzle.

 

[CButterfield]

I’ve used (and loved) a Coles 4038 on my last few albums. It’s ridiculously thick and meaty sounding. hands down my favorite close up bass mic.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I’ve used (and loved) a Coles 4038 on my last few albums. It’s ridiculously thick and meaty sounding. hands down my favorite close up bass mic.

I had stereo 4038’s once. Amazing. A live-rough-n-ready-straight-into-the-mics recording from 2007. Live. Gut strings.

 

[CButterfield]

Here’s an original tune recorded at Oberlin a few years ago. I’d say 80% of the bass sound is the Coles- with a bit of room mic in there for natural reverb. Sounds fat with pizzicato and super thick on arco stuff later in the track

 

[BassiklyAC]

Here’s an original tune recorded at Oberlin a few years ago. I’d say 80% of the bass sound is the Coles- with a bit of room mic in there for natural reverb. Sounds fat with pizzicato and super thick on arco stuff later in the track

Forgot about the mic four bars in. Outstanding.

 

[bcamp]

My typical recording setup is this: A Bock 47 LDC about 18" off the bridge, a KM84 SDC about 12" out aimed at the end of the fingerboard, a Samar VL37 ribbon about 6' out and 6" off the floor (yeah, I know it sounds weird) and an Erland pickup. The Bock 47 is the wood and beef, the KM84 is the finger detail, the Samar (figure8) is the sound of the bass in the room and the pickup is backup. Depending on the genre of song, you can blend these mics and pickup for any tone you need. It should be noted that this is an acoustically treated room and, interestingly enough, I find I use the ribbon soloed much of the time on bluegrass, blues and, especially, jazz. It usually sits in the mix just right, with little or no EQ or compression needed.