Ringing out rig at sound check.

[Ronzo]

Sorry, OP. I agree with your guitarist that soundcheck is not the time to do this. That is what 1) home practice and 2) band rehearsal is for. And more number 1 than 2.

Many times, that “wonderfully nuanced tone” you’re working so hard to achieve is not a workable sound in the context of the band’s overall mix. Same thing applies to the guitarist, BTW.

One suggestion I have is to record yourself “dress rehearsing” a song with both a dry and wet split. Your guitarist could do the same. With tracks recorded from keys, same process. Drums recorded in isolation. Then re-amp your part to see what changes you could make to fit the song’s mix better. If the guitarist and/or keys player can do this with you, it’s an excellent learning opportunity to get a better mix overall, and to see which nuances work, and which do not.

A lot of effort? Absolutely. Is it worth it? IME, yes.

 

[Mushroo]

I'm of the school that if the room has challenging acoustics (for example a glass wall) then the best person to solve that problem is the sound guy. I just focus on delivering the same quality tone I always provide, and then if it needs a little more bass or a little less treble, then the sound guy makes that adjustment at the board. If you do a good job balancing your patches in rehearsal, then you are feeding the sound guy good raw material to do their job.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm of the school that if the room has challenging acoustics (for example a glass wall) then the best person to solve that problem is the sound guy. I just focus on delivering the same quality tone I always provide, and then if it needs a little more bass or a little less treble, then the sound guy makes that adjustment at the board. If you do a good job balancing your patches in rehearsal, then you are feeding the sound guy good raw material to do their job.

Unfortunately, in my experience, it's not that simple. This is why I suggest balancing the patches before you arrive (this gets you close), doing it again when you setup and get a basic tone (this adjusts for local conditions), and then fine tuning with the audio tech during sound check.

As an audio tech I find it pretty frustrating when the levels between patches vary significantly, and unfortunately it's extremely common. I usually set aside time to balance the patches during sound check.

 

[s0c9]

Unfortunately, in my experience, it's not that simple. This is why I suggest balancing the patches before you arrive (this gets you close), doing it again when you setup and get a basic tone (this adjusts for local conditions), and then fine tuning with the audio tech during sound check.

As an audio tech I find it pretty frustrating when the levels between patches vary significantly, and unfortunately it's extremely common. I usually set aside time to balance the patches during sound check.

This goes back to my original post in this thread which says you don't do the tweaking at sound check. If one's levels are so far "off" between venues, one needs to go back to the drawing board. If one's presets are so badly impacted by a glass wall behind you, imagine how out-of-whack you'll be at the next gig when there's curtain (or some other material) behind you and you are forced to "tweak" again. What if it's concrete? And the cycle continues.

At some point - and this was pointed out to me many years ago - it's time to start playing and stop tweaking.

I used to spend an inordinate amount of time tweaking my guitar amp (back when I played lead guitar and no bass), bent over in front of my amp. Up down, down up.
At one gig, a friend asked when I was going to start playing? It really hit home.
After that, I stopped tweaking at gigs and did my homework.. at home/practice.
And here's the kicker IME - based on being both stage-side and FOH for MANY years - the AVERAGE punter in the audience WON'T know the difference.
Your "tone" will either make the song sound good or it won't. If it's the latter, then you'll probably hear about it.
Otherwise, carry on

 

[Downunderwonder]

Can you not set up your patches for a happy medium and whack an EQ after it all to fix your room problems?

 

[Wasnex]

This goes back to my original post in this thread which says you don't do the tweaking at sound check. If one's levels are so far "off" between venues, one needs to go back to the drawing board. If one's presets are so badly impacted by a glass wall behind you, imagine how out-of-whack you'll be at the next gig when there's curtain (or some other material) behind you and you are forced to "tweak" again. What if it's concrete? And the cycle continues.

At some point - and this was pointed out to me many years ago - it's time to start playing and stop tweaking.

I used to spend an inordinate amount of time tweaking my guitar amp (back when I played lead guitar and no bass), bent over in front of my amp. Up down, down up.
At one gig, a friend asked when I was going to start playing? It really hit home.
After that, I stopped tweaking at gigs and did my homework.. at home/practice.
And here's the kicker IME - based on being both stage-side and FOH for MANY years - the AVERAGE punter in the audience WON'T know the difference.
Your "tone" will either make the song sound good or it won't. If it's the latter, then you'll probably hear about it.
Otherwise, carry on

IMHO, tweaking is important and vital, but there is such a thing as over doing it. I don't think a few minutes during setup and few minutes during sound check is unreasonable. When I am running sound for a big event, it's something I build into the schedule and encourage the talent to do. YMMV!

 

[Wasnex]

Can you not set up your patches for a happy medium and whack an EQ after it all to fix your room problems?

Ringing out rig at sound check.

 

[s0c9]

View attachment 3492929

IMHO, tweaking is important and vital, but there is such a thing as over doing it. I don't think a few minutes during setup and few minutes during sound check is unreasonable. When I am running sound for a big event, it's something I build into the schedule and encourage the talent to do. YMMV!

Right! I wasn't suggesting that it NOT be done.. there IS a fine line. But patch/preset leveling/balancing should NOT be done at sound check.

 

[Wasnex]

Right! I wasn't suggesting that it NOT be done.. there IS a fine line. But patch/preset leveling/balancing should NOT be done at sound check.

Respectfully, I disagree.

With the various groups I have worked with as both a bass player and audio tech, it has been routine to check critical patch changes during sound check, and to adjust as needed. Usually little if any adjustment is necessary, because an effort is made to do the work in advance, and the players usually get a pretty good feel for dialing things in, as they work with their gear regularly. Let's keep in mind, I am talking about full time pros and not weekend warriors.

Although the goal is really to check the patches to confirm everything is good to go, there have definitely been times where we took a few minutes to allow various players to make a few tweaks. There have also been a few times, where we had to cut our losses and move on because we were short on time. But at least we know there's an unresolved problem and I have an opportunity to make a little mental note to be alert and keep my ears open.

If you don't think it's worth taking a few extra minutes of available time to check and smooth out a few patches, I am entirely comfortable with it and I don't really care to change your opinion on this matter. It has been worth the effort to me and also the musicians and audio techs I have worked with...but as with many matters, YMMV.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I don't see why it should be any different for a pedal set for a bassist to be EQ'd globally to the room or stage if the chain and combinations have been organised ahead, as compared say a guitarist showing up with a Kemper all programmed up.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't see why it should be any different for a pedal set for a bassist to be EQ'd globally to the room or stage if the chain and combinations have been organised ahead, as compared say a guitarist showing up with a Kemper all programmed up.

There is no difference...both the pedal board and Kemper may need minor tweaks.

I think it's worth the effort to ensure the patches are just right for the show. But if you would rather deal with varying levels during the show, you can forego this part of soundcheck. So if any instrumentalist ask if you want to check their patches, just tell them no. Although, I suspect some bands will appreciate this, and others will think you are a hack.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Weird. Surely the interactivity of pedals and patches requires nothing be adjusted without a thorough do over to re level the final outputs. That's what OP is doing and it's not flying.

If the room doesn't like the output I would think changing the final send is the thing to do. If it sounds good through the headphones it really should be fine in the PA if the PA is EQ'd to the room anyway.

Sounds like the main problem is feedback the stage. Same solution but send undoctored output to front.

Where's the problem with this logic?

 

[Wasnex]

Weird. Surely the interactivity of pedals and patches requires nothing be adjusted without a thorough do over to re level the final outputs. That's what OP is doing and it's not flying.

If the room doesn't like the output I would think changing the final send is the thing to do. If it sounds good through the headphones it really should be fine in the PA if the PA is EQ'd to the room anyway.

Sounds like the main problem is feedback the stage. Same solution but send undoctored output to front.

Where's the problem with this logic?

I am not saying to make major changes. Hopefully the player has dialed everything in reasonably close in advance, so a few minor tweaks are all that is needed...but this depends on the acoustics and how the various EQs in the signal path interact.

I think the OP's problem is other band members see things the way you and @s0c9 do instead of the way I do, so he is frustrated because he wants to dial in his effects a bit tighter than can be done in advance.

Headphones, bass amps, and PA speakers all sound different. Move a PA speaker from one room to another and it will sound different, regardless of how good you are with EQ. See post #27 and also consider Fletcher Munson.

I don't typically play bass with effects, but I have a huge pedal board that I set up for guitar and have done a lot of experiments with. My observations is it doesn't take much to change the perceived balance of the effects. A small change in volume, a small change in the master EQ, or a change in the acoustics is enough to warrant re-balancing the levels, and possibly tweaking the tone controls on individual effects. My experiments are also consistent with what I have observed while serving as an audio tech. Patches that are perfectly balanced in one room don't work in the next. Or patches that are perfectly balanced at one volume level may be out of balance if you turn up or down.

You also need to consider the difference between the stage environment and what works at FOH. My personal philosophy is professional musicians exists to provide a service to the audience. To the greatest degree possible, I would prioritize balancing the effects in the FOH mix, which may throw them off on stage a bit. Obviously some degree of compromise may be required as the musician needs a certain comfort level to be able to perform.

You have known for a long time that I am extremely detail-oriented. My approach is not right for everyone; so you don't have to agree with my philosophy or approach. But this thread is not about me, it's about the OP. Hopefully he has a better perspective on why his bandmates don't support what he wants to do. Many people in this thread don't support his goals either. Perhaps it would be best for him to find another band with members who more inline with his philosophy on this matter.

Honestly I am a bit stunned and disheartened by how many people think spending a few minutes dialing in effects is unacceptable, especially considering all the BS that typically goes with being a musician.

I don't think I have anything else to add, so I'll let myself out now .

 

[Zbysek]

The frequency spectrum of each effect is a bit different, so adjusting the master EQ is not really going to do the job. If you fix one effect with the master, this may cause the next effect to be too dark and too low in the mix. In order to do a good job, you really do need to tweak each effect. If you change your volume or overall tone you might have to go through and tweak some more...and yes it can be infuriating.

Because of the complexities you described, my approach changed. I found I cannot make big differences between my different sounds. In general, I learnt to play the whole show with one basic sound making only (very) subtle changes to it (usually using only pick-up configurations and EQ).

The thing is that in real world adjusting master EQ must be enough. A bass player who will "tweak each effect" before the show as you put it might annoy bandmates, the sound tech, the promoter and anybody else present.

In order to prevent that from happening, it is necessary to do the "homework". IME, it's not possible to do it entirely at home, it needs to be done (or at least tested) in a band setting. In the past, when preparing for a tour, we have done this first in our rehearsal room (playing and making settings together) and than in some rented hall with the FOH.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Perhaps OP has a bigger problem with fading bass or pedal batteries than he realises.

My own pedal adventures on bass were all balls out with the PA behind us and no bass rig as such. I guess the volume was pretty consistent but isn't it too with a PA supported band on stage?

 

[Zbysek]

Honestly I am a bit stunned and disheartened by how many people think spending a few minutes dialing in effects is unacceptable, especially considering all the BS that typically goes with being a musician.

Take it easy, Wasnex.

The OP titled this thread "a sanity check". IMHO, he got two pieces of good advice in reply:

1. He needs to do everything reasonably possible beforehand to prevent that kind of situation.
2. He needs to communicate well with the others about what he is trying to achieve.

What I am trying to say to the OP (and others probably as well), is not that I will not tollerate few minutes of dialling. I am trying to tell him that, IME, if I do a few minutes of dialling in without properly explaining the others that it's neccessary, I need to be prepared that others will not like it.

 

[Zbysek]

If it is unacceptable , id like some ideas on how i can ensure my sound is correct?

In order to try to be helpful, I have given it some more thoughts... Here are my five tips for you, Snowbike.

1. Re-think your signal chain. May be it does not need to be that complex. May be some effects are not that important to the particular songs you are using them for. Do not rely on your judgment only. Try to involve your bandmates, especially the ones SHHH-ing you. Get together in your practice room and consult with them. Ask them whether they think that particular effect is important for a particular song. If they don't, than it's probably not. That way, you may end up with less than half of your current effects, IME. But the ones you end up with will be the ones which will be considered important by your bandmates. You should experience no more troubles from your bandmates during the sound-check trying to make those "important" effects work...
2. Rent a place with sound tech for a rehearsal with FOH. You will have plenty of time to adjust your sounds. Consult with the tech as much as possible.
3. It's not always neccessary to play covers with the exact sound used in the original track. Sometimes it's fun to make it sound different. You have mentioned Muse. Do not feel obliged to sound the same as Muse....unless you are in Muse Revival the aim of which is to mimic the original, of course.
4. Re-think your approach towards effects in general. You have presented as given the fact that your pedal board is complex...even though it causes you problems at gigs. My approach is opposite: I adjust my pedal board to gigs. I will not use effects in gigs which would cause me troubles. I have about 20 effects at home. I rarely take more than four with me when leaving home for a gig...
5. Last but not least: do not expect live gigs to be perfect sound-wise. Live preformance is always a compromise to a certain degree. Try to enjoy it even if you are not entirely happy with your sound.

Good luck!

 

[s0c9]

Respectfully, I disagree.

With the various groups I have worked with as both a bass player and audio tech, it has been routine to check critical patch changes during sound check, and to adjust as needed. Usually little if any adjustment is necessary, because an effort is made to do the work in advance, and the players usually get a pretty good feel for dialing things in, as they work with their gear regularly. Let's keep in mind, I am talking about full time pros and not weekend warriors.

Although the goal is really to check the patches to confirm everything is good to go, there have definitely been times where we took a few minutes to allow various players to make a few tweaks. There have also been a few times, where we had to cut our losses and move on because we were short on time. But at least we know there's an unresolved problem and I have an opportunity to make a little mental note to be alert and keep my ears open.

If you don't think it's worth taking a few extra minutes of available time to check and smooth out a few patches, I am entirely comfortable with it and I don't really care to change your opinion on this matter. It has been worth the effort to me and also the musicians and audio techs I have worked with...but as with many matters, YMMV.

It's OK to disagree But you went off on a tangent with the line I bolded above.
THOSE guys do that for a living.. and I AGREE with you that they can adjust/balance pretty quickly. I would say they are on the correct side of the "fine line" I mentioned before. Plus, most of them have the time to do that and a dedicated crew, and maybe an opening act.. also with same dedicated crew. On gigs I've done where we've been the opening act for a national - they take their sweet time to get things set up, and we get the balance of whatever time is left (which usually is very little and ZERO time for tweaking your pedal board) before "doors open".
Weekend warriors - whom you omitted from the above post - are a whole different set of circumstances on average.
If they're only doing 4 or fewer gigs a month, they MAY be seasoned enough to adjust quickly. Most aren't IMHO, and that applies to anyone using a pedal board.
Other than that, I stand by my original statement that they are on the wrong side of the fine line - doing what the OP was talking about with all that tweaking.
Back to the drawing board. Fix it at home/practice - not during sound check.
MY $0.02

 

[Wisebass]

hi Wasnex

Honestly I am a bit stunned and disheartened by how many people think spending a few minutes dialing in effects is unacceptable, especially considering all the BS that typically goes with being a musician.

Heads up!

Just imagine how much fun it would be to tell a Keyborder:

"Hey man, you can' t change sounds tonight. Just use that organ sound for everything.

No brass, no strings, no piano and certainly no synths! That' s too much touble!

Don' t worry! The audience won' t hear the difference!"


Or when the guitarist shows up:

"Forget about that amp! We don' t have the time to use a microphone.

Pedals? Why? No, just plug your guitar in that Behringer D.I.box.

Oh! And when we 're at it, don' t switch between the pickups.

That humbucker in the bridge position is too hot!

The poor soundguy will have a heart attack when you use it!

A solo sound? Come on! Guitar solos are out.

Nobody wants to hear them!!!"



People don' t say that to keyboarders or guitarists!

Why? Because everybody knows it' s stupid and wrong!


greetings

Wise(b)ass

 

[stubborne]

It's a "sound check", which implies it's a time to "check" your "sound". If that requires tweaking some knobs, when else are you going to do it? Be efficient and no noodling.