Ringing out rig at sound check.

[snowbike]

I need a sanity check.
I have a fairly complex effects board as we do some MUSE, some pitch shifting stuff/ Have multiple chains etc. I need to ring this out at sound check and make sure its all levelled correctly. I Realised a long time ago that its not just plug and play. The room/venue changes things quite dramatically. Last night for instance I did a gig where the rig was right infront of a large glass window behind and open air at the front. This took a couple of minutes adjustment to compensate. I that case even if i plugged directly in this would have taken some tweeking on the amp itself.

The problem is i seem to be upsetting an another member of the band. They seem insistent on "SHHHH"ing me as soon as i start. Saying its unprofessional and no other bass players do this.. It seems expected of me to me make almost no sound other than the sound check song.
As far as i know the band has had no feed back from any venue the like of..."Great band, What the hell was the bass player doing making noise at sound check?"
I get alot of good feedback on my tone/sound/effects i use.
Opinions?

If it is unacceptable , id like some ideas on how i can ensure my sound is correct?

Snowbike

 

[s0c9]

Without being there, and based on your post, my "guess" is that they don't think you should be ringing "this out at sound check and make sure its all levelled correctly."
IF that is the case, then I would agree.. That should be done BEFORE any gig -at rehearsal, practice, etc.
If you need to do that at a gig, then (IMHO - and maybe theirs too) you haven't done your homework, as all one "should" be doing at sound check is making sure you have sound and it's balanced with the rest of the band.
If you have a bunch of effects then level setting should NOT be done at sound check. Doing a bunch of "tweaking" during sound check if not very professional.

MY $0.02 and no offense intended.

 

[arbiterusa]

It seems expected of me to me make almost no sound other than the sound check song.

Correct. That's what is supposed to happen at soundcheck. It's not band practice or rehearsal.

I need to ring this out at sound check and make sure its all levelled correctly. I Realised a long time ago that its not just plug and play.

You're supposed to do that beforehand. If your rig is so complex that you can't - that you need several minutes to "adjust it to the room" - you need another rig that doesn't require that. Anything you bring to a gig needs to be "plug and play".

Here's how soundcheck goes for my band - and how it's supposed to go in general:

Mics/direct feeds set up by soundguy. He lets us know when it's soundcheck time.
Everyone puts on/sits behind their instruments. Amps are turned on. Nobody plays anything.
Soundguy usually starts with the drums. That takes the longest. Ends with drummer testing his vocal mic.
Guitarist plays a couple of notes clean, couple with dirt. He tests his vocal mic.
Keys plays a few notes. We confirm he can be heard in the monitors.
I play a few notes. I test my vocal mic.
Everyone puts their instruments down, mutes the amps (or turns down the master volume, I have a mute and use it)
Walk off stage and wait for showtime.

 

[Oddly]

Can't find it right now but there's a comedy routine out there where the bass player's soundcheck involves hitting one note.
Maybe your objector has seen that?

I get what the OP is thinking though...if he's running a few different sound-scapes it's obviously a good idea to make sure they're all coming out the same and with variables like windows to compensate for, just telling the bass player to shut up isn't helpful.

 

[GlassToMouth]

I run sound and play bass for the band that I'm in. I prefer to give the venue the most professional experience possible. As such I tend to discourage band members from making excess noise and noodling during sound check. Effects, gain staging, etc should be as organised as possible prior to showtime. Subtle tweaks for different rooms, but mostly set and forget.

 

[Wasnex]

I need a sanity check.
I have a fairly complex effects board as we do some MUSE, some pitch shifting stuff/ Have multiple chains etc. I need to ring this out at sound check and make sure its all levelled correctly. I Realised a long time ago that its not just plug and play. The room/venue changes things quite dramatically. Last night for instance I did a gig where the rig was right infront of a large glass window behind and open air at the front. This took a couple of minutes adjustment to compensate. I that case even if i plugged directly in this would have taken some tweeking on the amp itself.

The problem is i seem to be upsetting an another member of the band. They seem insistent on "SHHHH"ing me as soon as i start. Saying its unprofessional and no other bass players do this.. It seems expected of me to me make almost no sound other than the sound check song.
As far as i know the band has had no feed back from any venue the like of..."Great band, What the hell was the bass player doing making noise at sound check?"
I get alot of good feedback on my tone/sound/effects i use.
Opinions?

If it is unacceptable , id like some ideas on how i can ensure my sound is correct?

Snowbike

I'll go against the grain a bit here. I totally understand where the others are coming from, because setting up and configuring a sound system is very complex, and it tends to be very stressful and hard to engage in the necessary critical thinking to trouble shoot a system when there is a lot of random noise going on. So I do agree that the musicians should get set up, get a basic sound, and then get off stage until the actual sound check begins.

However, getting a basic sound may take an extended time depending on your rig and approach. If you are a guitar player or bass player who uses a bunch of effects, those effects have to be EQ'ed and gain staged in the venue, at the volume they will be used at. If this is not done, levels will not balance between patches during the show, so IMHO, this is a critical step. Most of the work should be done before the actual sound check and it should be done as quickly as you can, because other people are trying to work and you are interrupting their progress. An effort should be made before the gig to get everything as close as possible before you show up.

Ideally during sound check, time should be set aside to confirm levels balance from patch to patch and quick corrections should be made. This is not always realistic. A cue sheet should be provided to the audio tech that details that patch changes that occur in each song. Some techs will use this info and others will not.

 

[Wisebass]

hi snowbike

Opinions?

If you have a bunch of effects then level setting should NOT be done at sound check. Doing a bunch of "tweaking" during sound check if not very professional.

Basic level tweaking should be done before you even go gigging!

And "inventing" new sounds with your pedals during sound check is a biiiiig No No!
(guitar players love to do that kind of stunts )


On the other hand, we (bassplayers) do not longer just "plug into a D.I. box and play the boomstick.

It is hard to fight for your right to use more than one bass or different sounds on a gig!

Sometimes other musicians don 't understand that the role of the bassguitar is more than just roots and fifths played with just one sound. (they should know better because that changed in the 60s )

(IME) The same guys who tell you to just plug in and play, will complain after the gig

that the bass was too muddy or got lost in the mix or….or... or...

And of course they will blame the sound guy for that.

Ideally during sound check, time should be set aside to confirm levels balance from patch to patch and quick corrections should be made. This is not always realistic. A cue sheet should be provided to the audio tech that details that patch changes that occur in each song. Some techs will use this info and others will not.

I want to add that there also is a huge difference between gigs with full F.O.H. support and monitors

and gigs where your rig has to carry the room and/ or is needed as a monitor!

The higher the stage volume (of your rig) the more importent it is to eq (and filter) for the room!

If it is unacceptable , id like some ideas on how i can ensure my sound is correct?

Be faster than everybody else setting up and tweaking your stuff!

(and make friends with the guy at the mixer, he/ she can save you from a lot of trouble!!!!)


may the bass be with you

Wise(b)ass

 

[Paulabass]

If it's your gig, and you can sound check until the cows come home- go for it, and tell your bandmates to mind their own business. It's it's a multi band gig, you are going to have to figure out how to plug-and-play. After soundcheck, when there are people in the house, you can't do it any more, that looks really amateur.

 

[Wasnex]

Be faster than everybody else setting up and tweaking your stuff!

(and make friends with the guy at the mixer, he/ she can save you from a lot of trouble!!!!)

This is great advice! The worst thing is for your tweaking to be a surprise and for everyone to think your just wanking for the fun of it. Good communication is key so everyone understands that you have a purpose and the goal is to make the gig go more smoothly.

Also communication will provide an opportunity for negotiation if you need to limit your tweaking to a certain time frame. My bands tended to work these matters out before gig day. In other words, if the bass or guitar player needed and extended time to tweak, the audio tech would know in advance and would also be provide a cue sheet to review, so there were no surprises.

 

[Wasnex]

If it's your gig, and you can sound check until the cows come home- go for it, and tell your bandmates to mind their own business. It's it's a multi band gig, you are going to have to figure out how to plug-and-play. After soundcheck, when there are people in the house, you can't do it any more, that looks really amateur.

This is very true. With practice, hopefully you get better at setting you rig up to be close, and then tweaking on the fly. Lot's of bands do gigs where there is essentially no sound check (plug N play). I still recommend providing the audio tech a cue sheet; some actually will review and use it.

 

[kalle74]

I've never even heard of ringing out a bass rig. What does this include?

"Ringing out" the PA system / monitors was a thing back in the day. Hopefully people don't do it anymore.

 

[Wasnex]

I've never even heard of ringing out a bass rig. What does this include?

"Ringing out" the PA system / monitors was a thing back in the day. Hopefully people don't do it anymore.

I think he means dialing the bass rig. But if you play string bass and use a powerful EQ, you can tune the rig for feedback the same way you would ring a room.

 

[buldog5151bass]

I'm not sure how adjusting levels can't be done ahead of time. You aren't playing MSG.

 

[Wasnex]

I'm not sure how adjusting levels can't be done ahead of time. You aren't playing MSG.

You should definitely adjust your EQ and levels in advance, but IMHO that only gets you in the ball park. If you really want different effects to balance from patch to patch you need to do it in the venue under the conditions you will actually be playing in. Unfortunately a lot of players don't realize this and their levels jump all over the place throughout the show.

One of the primary reasons for the problem relates to masking and frequency slotting and the way acoustics varies from one venue to the next.

IMHO dial it in before you show up, dial it in some more when you set your amp up and get your basic sound, and make final adjustments during sound check. If you use a bunch of patches you need to put a lot of forethought into how to get through all of this as efficiently as possible, because time is often limited.

 

[snowbike]

This is exactly the issue. I do dial everything in advance but this can change so dramatically at the venue.
As I stated in the original post , I had a nightmare at that gig as we were put infront of a massive glass window behind the stage and open air at the front. Bass frequencies were lost and high frequencies just bounced right back. I use alot of octave up/synth/fuzz and generally a dirty sound. If i had left it as is.. the sound would have been unbearably shrill. I needed to adjust.

It is a bug bear when guitarists sound jumps up and down so much in songs ... I dont want to cause the same issues.

I fully understand if you just plug direct in to an amp and play you can pretty much tweek on the fly But if you have anything more complex it needs a little time to sort. Also understand I'm wrestling with the bottom end and higher frequencies/synth sounds almost like multiple instruments.

Im toying with standing my ground and generally refusing to play the songs in the set that require the above (muse stuff for example) unless i can balance my sound. It doesnt take long. Literally a few seconds. Shame as they can be the most fun to play and a couple are good crowd pleasers.

 

[4Mal]

"Ringing out" the PA system / monitors was a thing back in the day. Hopefully people don't do it anymore.

Lord but I hope you’re kidding. If not, it sure is a thing today. You want a show with 0 feedback and high volume ? You ring out the system...

 

[4Mal]

This is exactly the issue. I do dial everything in advance but this can change so dramatically at the venue.
As I stated in the original post , I had a nightmare at that gig as we were put infront of a massive glass window behind the stage and open air at the front. Bass frequencies were lost and high frequencies just bounced right back. I use alot of octave up/synth/fuzz and generally a dirty sound. If i had left it as is.. the sound would have been unbearably shrill. I needed to adjust.

It is a bug bear when guitarists sound jumps up and down so much in songs ... I dont want to cause the same issues.

I fully understand if you just plug direct in to an amp and play you can pretty much tweek on the fly But if you have anything more complex it needs a little time to sort. Also understand I'm wrestling with the bottom end and higher frequencies/synth sounds almost like multiple instruments.

Im toying with standing my ground and generally refusing to play the songs in the set that require the above (muse stuff for example) unless i can balance my sound. It doesnt take long. Literally a few seconds. Shame

Can’t you just eq the top out of it’s too shrill for the room ? If you have to adjust every patch in your synth setup, maybe you should rethink your approach to synthesis, eq and amplification ... maybe, just maybe some of your patches are a bit too close to the edge sonically...

If there is audience present, i.e. you are setting up in a space that is not simply a concert venue prior to ‘gates’ - then the stuff you are describing should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Not a synth thing but in the pro sound world we are done with sound checks a couple of hours prior to gates... I have a show Thursday with a large tribute band. I’m the sound provider. We load in at noon, sound check at 3. Gates at 6, 7pm downbeat. All the audience gets is showtime...

 

[JRA]

Opinions?

some great advice/expert opinions in this thread: read 'em and weep! IME: nobody wants to hear the bass cat 'labor' on a bunch of effects/tones while preparing for either a soundcheck or a show.

also: figure a way to get your headphones involved --- you can silently (to others) wank and level your effects 'til the cows come home....and you'll look important!

good luck getting your idiosyncracies accepted by your bandmate critics!

 

[Wasnex]

This is exactly the issue. I do dial everything in advance but this can change so dramatically at the venue.
As I stated in the original post , I had a nightmare at that gig as we were put infront of a massive glass window behind the stage and open air at the front. Bass frequencies were lost and high frequencies just bounced right back. I use alot of octave up/synth/fuzz and generally a dirty sound. If i had left it as is.. the sound would have been unbearably shrill. I needed to adjust.

It is a bug bear when guitarists sound jumps up and down so much in songs ... I dont want to cause the same issues.

I fully understand if you just plug direct in to an amp and play you can pretty much tweek on the fly But if you have anything more complex it needs a little time to sort. Also understand I'm wrestling with the bottom end and higher frequencies/synth sounds almost like multiple instruments.

Im toying with standing my ground and generally refusing to play the songs in the set that require the above (muse stuff for example) unless i can balance my sound. It doesnt take long. Literally a few seconds. Shame as they can be the most fun to play and a couple are good crowd pleasers.

The problem is the guitar player is not sophisticated enough to care and you appear to be the only one in the band that this sort of nuance matters to. So you have a range of options to try: 1. Try to educate the band on what you are doing and why it's important, so they are willing to let you have the time necessary to do a good job. 2. Let it go and either play without the effects or accept more variation between patches. 3. Quit and find players who appreciate your nuanced approach.

IMHO 4. Standing your ground without any sort of rationale explanation and negotiation is also an option, but it is likely to lead to conflict and ultimately bad blood; which will lead to option 3. I am not a fan of intentionally burning bridges, so if you think you will need to leave, I would try to do it on good terms.

 

[Wasnex]

Can’t you just eq the top out of it’s too shrill for the room ? If you have to adjust every patch in your synth setup, maybe you should rethink your approach to synthesis, eq and amplification ... maybe, just maybe some of your patches are a bit too close to the edge sonically...

If there is audience present, i.e. you are setting up in a space that is not simply a concert venue prior to ‘gates’ - then the stuff you are describing should be kept to an absolute minimum.

Not a synth thing but in the pro sound world we are done with sound checks a couple of hours prior to gates... I have a show Thursday with a large tribute band. I’m the sound provider. We load in at noon, sound check at 3. Gates at 6, 7pm downbeat. All the audience gets is showtime...

The frequency spectrum of each effect is a bit different, so adjusting the master EQ is not really going to do the job. If you fix one effect with the master, this may cause the next effect to be too dark and too low in the mix. In order to do a good job, you really do need to tweak each effect. If you change your volume or overall tone you might have to go through and tweak some more...and yes it can be infuriating.