Double Bass Ron Carter's Line over F Blues Transcribed

[Don Kasper]

Don, have you ever recorded a jazz play along?

No, Ed. I have not.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

I would submit that it's not "inaccurate or incomplete", it's just reflective of the whole exercise. Almost without exception, these are recorded with the rhythm section accompanying a soloist, who is not represented on the finished product. And that rhythm section is making choices the same way any experienced jazz musician does; listening to and responding to their immediate aural environment. Not by correctly spelling a chord change on a piece of paper.

I think there is a lot of value in having a student bassist (or any musician really) try to play that C# "because RC did it" and have it not work and sound like **** and have to figure out why for themselves or with a teacher. More so than playing an A7#9+5 on every blues in F that they play, because that's what they read.

You, of course, are welcome to do what you will. For me, I much prefer less of a "box"; as George Garzone often says "sometimes, you just gotta divorce yourself from the changes..."

 

[Don Kasper]

I would submit that it's not "inaccurate or incomplete", it's just reflective of the whole exercise. Almost without exception, these are recorded with the rhythm section accompanying a soloist, who is not represented on the finished product. And that rhythm section is making choices the same way any experienced jazz musician does; listening to and responding to their immediate aural environment. Not by correctly spelling a chord change on a piece of paper.

I think there is a lot of value in having a student bassist (or any musician really) try to play that C# "because RC did it" and have it not work and sound like **** and have to figure out why for themselves or with a teacher. More so than playing an A7#9+5 on every blues in F that they play, because that's what they read.

You, of course, are welcome to do what you will. For me, I much prefer less of a "box"; as George Garzone often says "sometimes, you just gotta divorce yourself from the changes..."

Ed,
Yes, I understand how the Aebersold recordings were done. By publishing RC's bassline under the written chord changes, the author(s) is/are implying, (incorrectly), that RC was reading/playing those changes. We agree that nobody on that recording session was reading anything.
My point is that it is " inaccurate or incomplete" ( or both) to publish basslines, that were the result of "listening to and responding to their immediate aural environment", while at the same time, publishing incorrect accompanying chord changes. A more accurate and complete publication would present the correct, actual, "aural" changes, chorus by chorus, for each chorus of bassline - esp. for beginning/int. players.
As to your second point, yes, everybody needs to come to terms with the actual, aural sound of the chords, and which notes THEY prefer to play within ( or without) of that harmony. I'm not at all advocating playing A7#9+5 on every F blues, based on what RC may have played, only that there are a number(!) of possible chords that may occur at that point in the form. I've found the PIANO to be the most valuable tool for that. ( I think we agree here, also).

Finally, re: George Garzone, it reminds me of a joke:
Q:" How can you identify the bass player in a jazz group?"
A:" He's the only one playing the RIGHT NOTE!".

Thanks for your time and interest.

 

[Jazzdogg]

I know this will probably rain on someone's academic parade but…. All this micro analysis and detailed one up-manship fails to take into account what the rest of the ensemble was playing at the time Mr. Carter made whatever musical choices he made. A strictly academic approach never seems to address the fact that great jazz playing is a moment to moment improvisational and conversational art form that often bends or breaks many cherished classical, theoretical and harmonic conventions.

I would submit that it's not "inaccurate or incomplete", it's just reflective of the whole exercise. Almost without exception, these are recorded with the rhythm section accompanying a soloist, who is not represented on the finished product. And that rhythm section is making choices the same way any experienced jazz musician does; listening to and responding to their immediate aural environment. Not by correctly spelling a chord change on a piece of paper.

I think there is a lot of value in having a student bassist (or any musician really) try to play that C# "because RC did it" and have it not work and sound like **** and have to figure out why for themselves or with a teacher. More so than playing an A7#9+5 on every blues in F that they play, because that's what they read.

You, of course, are welcome to do what you will. For me, I much prefer less of a "box"; as George Garzone often says "sometimes, you just gotta divorce yourself from the changes..."

Thank you, gentlemen, for expressing your thoughts so clearly; you've identified the crux of the issue very clearly, at least for me.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Don, OK, good luck with that.
Have a blessed day.

 

[Don Kasper]

And you, as well, Ed.

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Thank you, gentlemen, for expressing your thoughts so clearly; you've identified the crux of the issue very clearly, at least for me.

The crux is that nobody plays piano. They think they hear it all when they're just bs...ing.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

The crux is that nobody plays piano. They think they hear it all when they're just bs...ing.

Care to elaborate, Chuck?

 

[shwashwa]

why dont we just go to the recording and hear what the piano player was playing in the measure(s) in question? i believe its kenny on that one

 

[shwashwa]

just listened, he and kenny are clearly playing a chromatic ascending line on an arrangement of the head to now's the time. he doesnt seem to do the c# over Amin anywhere else. so the answer is, it seems to be part of an arrangement

 

[ChuckCorbis]

Care to elaborate, Chuck?

Nope. But the chords to 'Cattle Call' on guitar don't count. I'm talking about playing the changes to tunes on piano or guitar besides the stuff on bass. I should have said "SOMEBODY" can't, not "NOBODY". My bad.

 

[Treyzer]

Nope. But the chords to 'Cattle Call' on guitar don't count. I'm talking about playing the changes to tunes on piano or guitar besides the stuff on bass. I should have said "SOMEBODY" can't, not "NOBODY". My bad.

So who are you talking about and how exactly do you know?

 

[ChuckCorbis]

So who are you talking about and how exactly do you know?

What? Am I on trial here? Who cares anyway? Yeah. The changes bro. OK. Can you play them on piano? Or are you just fudgin'?

 

[Intenzity]

For the record, the changes were also copied as they appeared in the book, I took no liberty to edit/change/correct them, just wanted to analyze the notes.

The transcription credit goes to John Goldsby and Thomas Hilliker. And they do say in the into of the book that Mr. Aebersold was playing sax, but they took that track off.

 

[pnchad]

it's called jazz

I'd have ZERO interest in the idiom if we HAD to stay diatonic all the time

holy crap batman, what's the context?

there's a need for some early students to put everything in a box - it would be nice & neat if everyone played by the 'rules' but then it wouldn't be art

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

What? Am I on trial here?

No one is on trial here.

Who cares anyway?

Probably no one.

The changes bro. OK. Can you play them on piano?

Yes.

F
The transcription credit goes to John Goldsby and Thomas Hilliker.

I can't speak for Mr. Hilliker, but I'm pretty sure John understands that changes are a point of reference/departure in jazz, especially on a blues, so I can't see what all the fuss is about. For me, when I do a transcription, my favorite bits are always the parts that don't match the changes - these tend to be the places where I learn something new.

 

[punkjazzben]

So, who made it the highest up the wall? Or is the match not over yet?

To the OP, good work. Take the useful criticisms on board, learn, keep going. I agree with those who are saying jazz should be felt/heard/played/etc., but these exercises help us to understand the workings of good jazz bass playing, even if the player himself approaches music more intuitively than technically/theoretically.

To present an analogy, take a 'naturally' fast runner. They don't know what or how they're doing it, but they're just faster than everybody else. That doesn't preclude us from trying to understand what makes him/her a fast runner by studying movements, breathing patterns, cadence, conditions, etc. And, of course, we can simply try to understand it for the sake of knowledge, or we can do these things so that we might be able to replicate it or build on it.

And, hey, if someone wants to do an analysis of a walking bass line in their own time, why does anyone else care?

 

[Treyzer]

What? Am I on trial here? Who cares anyway? Yeah. The changes bro. OK. Can you play them on piano? Or are you just fudgin'?

(1) No (2) I don't really care (3) Yes I can (4) No I'm Not and finally; I would be very instructive to hear something that you have actually played bass on. Lets have a listen.

Plus 1000 to what Chris said...

 

[John Goldsby]

It's great that an F blues that RC played almost 40 years ago still makes people sit up and listen

When I did that transcription for Jamey, I was 18. I asked him what he thought I should transcribe, and he suggested I do some of the lines from Vol. 6, "All Bird." I ended up doing all of Ron's lines from that playalong — I think Thomas Hilliker had also sent some of them to Jamey. They are great lines, so Jamey decided to put them out as the book that we are discussing now.

I got a huge education from transcribing those lines way back then, and I recommend those lines to bassists who want to begin transcribing because they are easy to hear.

Regarding the changes: Those are just generic blues changes, which or course nobody was reading at the recording session. Then the question arises, do I use generic blues changes, so it's obvious where RC and KB are deviating, or do I try and write precise "harmony" to the changes either the bassist, or the pianist, or both of them are implying with their comping? At that time, in about 1978, I chose to just write the generic changes, and then revel in the brilliant little twists and turns that Ron and Kenny put in their comping.

I probably could have added F7/C to A7b9b13/C# to D13#11 and so on . . . but I think it makes more sense to think of the big picture: F7 to D7 (say in bars 7 & 8), and then hear and see what RC and KB do with that.

This also brings up a point that often the bassist and pianist are not playing or thinking exactly the same changes, or using the same substitutions — but hopefully they are listening to each other and finding a musical path by using some agreed-upon changes as a jumping off point.

Recently, RC played with the WDR Big Band, which is my steady gig, and I did the rehearsals of his big band music before he arrived in Cologne to play with the band. His charts on tunes like Loose Change, Footprints, Con Alma, Eternal Triangle, etc., are very specific. But that's not what he plays when he performs. He's always improvising and pushing and trying to create something new. I remember when I heard him play the arrangement of Eternal Triangle (Bb rhythm changes) live. Behind one of the saxophone solos, he pedaled the note B for the first 16 bars (that stirred things up a bit). The other players were still soloing over Bb rhythm. Now, if I were to transcribe that, I would still write the rhythm changes as the basic changes of the transcription — in spite of RC's B pedal notes.

So, I would say that usually the chord symbols in a transcription suggest the agreed-upon basic harmonic structure, but do not always account for the expansive harmonic palette of the actual performance that develops.

 

[John Goldsby]

BTW, Intenzity, it gets tricky precisely naming the chord or scale tones because of the possible re-harmonizations that are going on. It's a valuable exercise to *try* and name chord tones and scale degrees, but ultimately the whole line is a melody in itself— a counter-melody to what's happening in the blues form and to what the other players are playing.