Rosewood/Maple Finger Boards - Tone difference?

[john turner]

Are you comparing a double neck to a single neck and claiming you can isolate the wood species of the FB by listening even though it is under a gloss layer?

how about reading my -whole- post and analyzing what i've presented, instead of just isolating one part, out of context, and picking at it?

 

[john turner]

Yes, I could prove it but that sounds more like a petty pissing contest and I'm trying to steer away from the ego stuff in this thread and decide things more scientifically than emotionally.

this has nothing to do ego and everything to do with credibility. you make claims about your own authority on the matter in an effort to lend weight to your opinions, just back em up with something verifiable. easy as pie.

I've talked to one luthier who specifically told me he tells people what they want to hear whether it matters or not. But let's ignore the straw man polarization's going on. I'm just trying to find out if anyone anywhere can demonstrate this skill of aural taxonomic identification. Do you have any evidence of that?

i have illustrated my evidence. if that's not enough for you - shrug - makes no nevermind to me. shoot, i had neil kernon, who mixed our first cd, even nail the contruction of one of my basses by listening to the recording he mixed, and he's a guitarist (granted he also produced queensryche, hall and oates, mixed queen and yes, worked at trident studios during its glory days, etc). he was half-joking, sorta pulling my leg, but he was right, despite the fact that he had never heard a -conklin- before, he could still tell a maple boarded fretless.

 

[Fuzzbass]

i can -easily- hear the difference on two identically equipped basses. i -have- two identically equipped basses and the difference is swimmingly apparent.

That's nice, but you can't necessarily conclude that fretboard accounts for the difference.

To get you caught up: a number of us here (including Ken Smith, in another thread) have mentioned that we have identically equipped basses *including* fretboard, and noticed remarkable differences in tone. Identical basses can sound different, therefore if two slightly different basses sound different, it isn't necessarily due to the component that's different.

Luthiery is not chemistry. As Ken Smith said, pieces of wood cut from the same plank of the same tree can sound different.

 

[bigd4207]

Fretless really makes a difference in how it sounds though, you get more straight on sound, with any fretted instrument you are going to get reverb off the frets. That makes a big difference when you talk about where your tone comes from. I don't deny it makes a difference, not a big one IMO, but aren't maple boards also usually finished? I haven't really seen many rosewood boards finished like that. That can make some of the difference too. But, just because it is said, you get ____ sound from ____ board. But at the same time you will probably never find two peices of wood that sound exactly the same. I'm just saying nothing is certain, there are brighter sounding rosewoods, and warmer maples. But when all said and done, I believe the body and pickups make a lot more difference than the fretboard on a fretted instrument. Different fretboards PLAY different. I think that makes more difference in the sound than what it's actually made of. Anyways, a good bass is a good bass, it's all good.

 

[Moo]

how about reading my -whole- post and analyzing what i've presented, instead of just isolating one part, out of context, and picking at it?

How about reading that question as a question instead of getting all loopy and offering conspiracy theories?

You're way too defensive and I have no interest in impressing you with my credentials. Sorry.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Define "acoustic". Whether you like it or not, even electric basses are built to produce an AUDIBLE, ACOUSTIC output.

If you bang on a synth hard enough, you get an acoustic response.

How many synthesizers have been recorded unplugged? Zero.

How many solid or semisolid electric basses have been recorded unplugged? Zero.

That's the definition of acoustic instrument: one that can be used in some circumstances without amplification, and recorded effectively with a microphone alone.


Sure, electric basses produce some sound without being plugged in. Unlike the unplugged synth, that noise has recognizable pitch, and some similarity to the amplified tone of the instrument, but so what? Without pickups and electronics, all electric basses except some ABG's are useless for gigging or recording.


P.S. This is tangentially relevant to some comments made a few hundred posts ago.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

That's the definition of acoustic instrument: one that can be used in some circumstances without amplification, and recorded effectively with a microphone alone.

Well, I dunno. Certainly that's one definition. Another might be this: an instrument that has significant acoustic properties. I think this is what Brad is referring to. The sounds a synthesizer makes when struck aren't significant in this sense IMO, because they have no real effect on the sound the instrument makes when you use it musically. The sounds an unplugged solid-body bass makes do, however, affect how it sounds when plugged in. If they didn't, a bass made of, say, Lexan would always and everywhere sound the same as one made of maple or walnut or pine plywood. Without getting into the argument of how much body and neck material and construction affect sound, I don't think many of us would argue that construction and material never have any affect at all. As soon as you concede that a solid-body bass's construction can affect sound, to whatever degree, you concede that the bass has audible acoustic properties, even if only modest ones. If these properties are audible, they're significant in tonal terms. Thus, a solid-body bass would be an acoustic instrument by the definition I gave above.

BTW, I don't know if this has ever been done with a bass, but on Buddy Holly's records, part of his guitar sound came from a mike on the strings of his Strat, picking up purely the acoustic sound of his electric guitar.

 

[lucas vigor]

Yeah, and what's with those people who burst into threads without reading them?

I read most of them. 24 pages, though. You have the time for that?

As has been explained in this very thread, it is the most polite and immediate way to help someone find the info they need.

No, its not polite. it's a way for someone with 10,000 posts to lord it over someone with less posts. It happens on every single forum all around the world. There are always these clique-Y "oldbies" who **** on the "newbies", and then thier strident defenders who immediately jump to the rescue, like you just did. You know damn well it was rude and un-called for. The guy asking the posts has posted quite a bit too, so he knows the drill. He knows how to search. Figjam was not politely enlightening him or educating him.Figjam was just being a smart aleck, and you know it.

It is already on this site, repeatedly, so if you're asking for info would you prefer to wait, given that you're so busy, for it to be re-posted and perhaps not as comprehensively, or would you prefer to get all that info *right now* via the simple "Search" function?

Search functions are not that simple. You have to have amost the exact wording correct, or you don't get the right matches. Fretboard or fingerboard?

Do you walk into a library and look up the topic you're interested in, or do you tell the librarians the filing system and warehousing of info is fine for people with nothing better to do but you'd prefer that people get to work writing you fresh books on the subject?

This is not a librabry. Lots of good info here, but mostly just bass enthuthiasts. What, are you on figjam's payroll??

There is a word for this: Internet forum bully. Almost as bad as internet troll. Same type personality, just on different sides. Which one is which depends on perspective.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

This is not a librabry. Lots of good info here, but mostly just bass enthuthiasts. What, are you on figjam's payroll??

There is a word for this: Internet forum bully. Almost as bad as internet troll. Same type personality, just on different sides. Which one is which depends on perspective.

Sorry, but only in Bizarro World is politely asking someone to do a search being a "bully." And only in that same world is what SMASH posted "strident."

IMHO what you just posted was more bullying and strident in tone than what Figjam and SMASH said.

If you're worried about your time being "wasted" by reading old threads, consider this: by refusing to search, you're demanding that people "waste" their time saying stuff that's already been said, sometimes repeeatedly and at great length. Why should they work harder to give you info or opinions than you're willing to work to get those things?

 

[WesC]

OMG, now you guys are arguing over what the definition an acoustic instrument is?

Get a life.

 

[lucas vigor]

I just think that people don't need to tell people to "do a search" so quickly, as though they stupidly asked something really, really dumb.

Plus, someone's opinions found on an old thread may not be current. Heck, the original posters might not even exist anymore.

As I said, rather then saying "do a search" why not just bypass? Anyone who wants to discuss maple VS rosewood today, not a year ago, can jump in. Or not.

Pehaps calling someone an internet bully was a little harsh, and I retract that...but this is not the first time I have come across this old-timer attitude. It just bothers me. Makes me feel like I stumbled into a "members only" club.

You can't tell me this does not happen on this and other forums. Happens all the time.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

I just think that people don't need to tell people to "do a search" so quickly, as though they stupidly asked something really, really dumb.

Plus, someone's opinions found on an old thread may not be current. Heck, the original posters might not even exist anymore.

As I said, rather then saying "do a search" why not just bypass? Anyone who wants to discuss maple VS rosewood today, not a year ago, can jump in. Or not.

Pehaps calling someone an internet bully was a little harsh, and I retract that...but this is not the first time I have come across this old-timer attitude. It just bothers me. Makes me feel like I stumbled into a "members only" club.

You can't tell me this does not happen on this and other forums. Happens all the time.

I know what you mean, and you're right, it does go on on other boards. On most I've seen, far more than it does here. I used to go to alt.guitar on occasion. If you weren't one of the in crowd .... brrrrrr, freezeout. TalkBass is touchy-feely by comparison, and to me what you're objecting to here largely isn't the same kind of oldtimer attitude. In any case, what goes on elsewhere is irrelevant for present purposes.

My point is, just because someone says, please do a search, that doesn't mean they're trying to blow the questioner off. Sometimes it's nothing more than the equivalent of "There's a lot of good stuff that was posted fairly recently; if you look you'll find it; if you can't find what you need there, ask again." You notice that when someone starts a thread by saying, "I searched but couldn't find exactly what I needed," no one gives him/her a hard time?

As for the suggestion to bypass, I don't see why that's preferable. When you say "do a search," you're also saying, "I know for a fact that there is stuff posted on this forum that is at least somewhat relevant to what you're asking about." Isn't that valuable input? Some people put a lot of effort into their posts. Is it so terrible that they might not feel like writing the same thing over and over again every time someone asks?

 

[john turner]

How about reading that question as a question instead of getting all loopy and offering conspiracy theories?

You're way too defensive and I have no interest in impressing you with my credentials. Sorry.

good answer, mr. hominem. i have a feeling i wouldn't be impressed, based on your past performance here at talkbass. i could be wrong though.

 

[john turner]

That's nice, but you can't necessarily conclude that fretboard accounts for the difference.

i can order a bass with a maple board to get a specific kind of tone and when it arrives, hot digity, there it is, just what i was looking for

To get you caught up

: a number of us here (including Ken Smith, in another thread) have mentioned that we have identically equipped basses *including* fretboard, and noticed remarkable differences in tone. Identical basses can sound different, therefore if two slightly different basses sound different, it isn't necessarily due to the component that's different.

Luthiery is not chemistry. As Ken Smith said, pieces of wood cut from the same plank of the same tree can sound different.

and yet isn't it remarkable that i can specify a maple board on an instrument specifically for the tonal character it will contribute, and darn if it doesn't do exactly as i expect it to?

i must be fooling myself.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Well, I dunno. Certainly that's one definition. Another might be this: an instrument that has significant acoustic properties. I think this is what Brad is referring to. The sounds a synthesizer makes when struck aren't significant in this sense IMO, because they have no real effect on the sound the instrument makes when you use it musically. The sounds an unplugged solid-body bass makes do, however, affect how it sounds when plugged in. If they didn't, a bass made of, say, Lexan would always and everywhere sound the same as one made of maple or walnut or pine plywood. Without getting into the argument of how much body and neck material and construction affect sound, I don't think many of us would argue that construction and material never have any affect at all. As soon as you concede that a solid-body bass's construction can affect sound, to whatever degree, you concede that the bass has audible acoustic properties, even if only modest ones. If these properties are audible, they're significant in tonal terms. Thus, a solid-body bass would be an acoustic instrument by the definition I gave above.

BTW, I don't know if this has ever been done with a bass, but on Buddy Holly's records, part of his guitar sound came from a mike on the strings of his Strat, picking up purely the acoustic sound of his electric guitar.

Thanks... I was beginning to think it was just me.

 

[Headroom]

Oops, Sorry. I was looking for the P vs. J thread and must have stumbled into this one by mistake.

 

[JAUQO III-X]

Oops, Sorry. I was looking for the P vs. J thread and must have stumbled into this one by mistake.

 

[Brad Johnson]

If you bang on a synth hard enough, you get an acoustic response.

Including pitch?

I wasn't aware that synth keyboards had pitch when not triggering a module.

Trying to equate this with a synth key that has no pitch when struck is something I guess I'll never understand.

How many synthesizers have been recorded unplugged? Zero.

I can't say that... someone may have banged on one as you described. Could be a well-kept studio secret

How many solid or semisolid electric basses have been recorded unplugged? Zero.

I couldn't say that either. I have no idea what someone may have tried while recording. OTOH you seem to think you know what everyone who's ever recorded has done. While I see your conviction ("zero"), I can't imagine what it's based on other than an assumption.

That's the definition of acoustic instrument: one that can be used in some circumstances without amplification, and recorded effectively with a microphone alone.

Sorry but that is not "the" definition. That's "a" definition. Huge difference.

Sure, electric basses produce some sound without being plugged in. Unlike the unplugged synth, that noise has recognizable pitch, and some similarity to the amplified tone of the instrument, but so what? Without pickups and electronics, all electric basses except some ABG's are useless for gigging or recording.

Many basses make the same "noise" unamplified as amplified... just not as loud.

The acoustic properties of the electric bass come through when amplified. If you think those acoustic properties have nothing to do with the basses output, fine. All basses don't sound the same, wood obviously affects tone yet wood is not electric, is it?

Or can a non-acoustic instrument have the acoustic properties of a musical, pitch capable acoustic instrument (just in case you want to bring percussion into this )?

If you really can't hear the ACOUSTIC output of an electric bass when unplugged AND you think they're somehow more akin to a synth than an AGB, I'll leave you to that. The only string instruments I'm aware of that didn't have acoustic output were synth triggers. Everything else, including electric basses, are at their very core acoustic.

BTW my basses don't make noise when they're played unplugged... they still make music

P.S. This is tangentially relevant to some comments made a few hundred posts ago.

Yeah, that was a while ago, wasn't it

 

[Brad Johnson]

OMG, now you guys are arguing over what the definition an acoustic instrument is?

Get a life.

Apparently there's a disagreement. What do you think?*









*hint: you're wrong

 

[lucas vigor]

I know what you mean, and you're right, it does go on on other boards. On most I've seen, far more than it does here. I used to go to alt.guitar on occasion. If you weren't one of the in crowd .... brrrrrr, freezeout. TalkBass is touchy-feely by comparison, and to me what you're objecting to here largely isn't the same kind of oldtimer attitude. In any case, what goes on elsewhere is irrelevant for present purposes.

My point is, just because someone says, please do a search, that doesn't mean they're trying to blow the questioner off. Sometimes it's nothing more than the equivalent of "There's a lot of good stuff that was posted fairly recently; if you look you'll find it; if you can't find what you need there, ask again." You notice that when someone starts a thread by saying, "I searched but couldn't find exactly what I needed," no one gives him/her a hard time?

As for the suggestion to bypass, I don't see why that's preferable. When you say "do a search," you're also saying, "I know for a fact that there is stuff posted on this forum that is at least somewhat relevant to what you're asking about." Isn't that valuable input? Some people put a lot of effort into their posts. Is it so terrible that they might not feel like writing the same thing over and over again every time someone asks?

Well, you have some good points there. However, my own tastes have changed over the years. For example, had you asked me 20 years ago, I would have said Jaco is the greatest, I need a 6 string Alembic, I want stainless steel roundwounds and want to change them every other day. 20 years later I am more likely to say Rocco is the greatest, my p-bass rocks, and I want the deadest, dullest flats I can find, and no effects. Back then, I traded a bass with a maple fingerboard for a rosewood because I did not like the looks. Nowadays, I love a birdseye maple fingerboard..especially the ones made by Carvin. But, you do make some good points about general forum ettiquete which I don't always follow myself.

I am a bit bitter about some of the internet forum experiences I have had, and that probably came through in my post. There is a forum for martial arts called "Deluxe martial arts forum". (hilarious flame wars and name calling-entertaining even if you don't like martial arts) Anyway, the resident "expert" is a guy with the user name "Jubaji". This guy has posted about a million posts. So many that I doubt he even does martial arts. I don't see how he would have the time, since he posts 24 hours a day it seems. Any question anyone asks is always met with the same one sentence replies, which are always sarcastic. He comes off like that type we all know and hate, the guy that was there before you were, and never lets you forget how much a noobie you are. His replies are always "do a search" or "here we go again" or "STFU (and then a middle finger emoticon)" basically, the attitude is that everyone is too stupid compared to him, and he is tired, so tired, of answering obvious questions that everyone should know already, according to his universe. Unfortutely, this type of loser can be found on many internent forums. So, Richard, I would agree that Talkbass has less of that stuff then most forums. However, the original poster did seem a little miffed that he got the "do a search" response, and even pointed out that it would have not taken all that much more time to respond to the question. Anyway, I have strong opinions about things, as you can probably tell.