Running EVERYTHING through a crossover -good idea or not?

[DuraMorte]

run everything through it and your speakers will all just get the part of the music spectrum they're meant to handle.

Unfortunately, running everything to your subs can have nasty side effects if the band has any members who don't know their sonic place.
In heavy guitar bands, the low wub of distorted chugs can extend down into the 50Hz range, especially in drop-tuned music. That will destroy the clarity and headroom in your subs.
If you feed your subs from a post-fader aux send, however, you won't have that problem. Or, alternatively, you can use the pan controls. Send L out to one side of your crossover to feed your mains. Send R to the other side of the crossover, to feed your subs. This gives you complete control of exactly what goes to your subs, without eating an aux. Just pan any low frequency instruments right until you get the blend you want. Works like a charm.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

Both guitars and the keys cut lows and the guitars have reasonable stage volume. Keys only come thru the mains and 2 of the 4 monitors.

I roll off the bass and use the 80hz high pass filter on all the channels except bass and kick. When I do sound, that's the way I roll. And the BBE has a 30hz filter which keeps out most of the mud.

 

[ggunn]

So if an audience member at a large or outdoor venue is standing at the left side of the pavilion or floor, how are the sounds that are panned to the right reaching them?

The same way that the stereo in your living room sounds stereo at just about any point in the room. But I would never pan anything hard left or right anyway.

I have heard stereo mixes at big shows that sounded *stunning*. One thing that I have seen done is the placement of small cabs at the base of each main stack pointed kind of sideways; I assume that they are the opposite channel so that if you are smack up against the left or right stack you can hear the other side.

It can be done, and done well.

 

[DigitalMan]

Just for reference, 80Hz is just below E2 (A string 7th fret) and 100Hz is just above G2. I only state that because that's where you might here the transition between sub-supported or main-only sound. I'd play around with relative volume, stepping, and/or frequency to make sure there isn't a "falling off a cliff" change in sound as your playing moves around these areas.

 

[walterw]

again, aux-fed subs are cool (and the way lots of the big boys do it), but not necessary in club/bar land if the players all have their s**t together and each channel input is EQ'd and high-passed properly.

part of having "good tone" on whatever instrument you play is keeping it out of the sonic spaces where it doesn't belong.

aux-feeding subs is a way to "lock out" instruments that are misbehaving.

 

[KingRazor]

The board I mix on was stereo by default. In fact we run a L/C/R configuration. I hardly ever pan anything though.

 

[DuraMorte]

if the players all have their s**t together

I agree with your post in spirit, but my whole point is, a lot of the time it's easiest to just go ahead and implement the aux-fed subs and be done with it. It doesn't take much time or effort to do, and the result will almost always be an improvement. With nothing to lose and everything to gain, why not?

 

[walterw]

If it's easier, sure.

It strikes me as an added layer of complexity for a poster asking "if they should use a crossover or not"; after all, they still need to use that crossover whether aux-feeding or not.

(edit) walk before you run and all that.

 

[Marko 1]

...

... we DJ dance music from an ipod or laptop during the breaks and would like the subs to give some more booty to the mix...

Being in the band, I'd turn the booty down a bit for the break music.

 

[seanm]

Being in the band, I'd turn the booty down a bit for the break music.

+1 For the obvious reason and because the bar wants people buying alcohol during the breaks, not dancing.

 

[AmpedSilence]

there is some very interesting info in this thread. I have always tried to run a pa setup in stereo (mostly cause the mains faders on the mixer say "left/right" )

I'm pretty comfortable with the sound we currently get. our powered sub has a crossover built in, I just need to run the lines differently. I have the signal running to the mains first, THEN it goes to the sub :scowl:

I R NOOB

 

[Barisaxman]

I'd say give the traditional setup a try (sounds like you're using aux-fed now) and see if you like it. There's nothing inherently wrong with either way of doing things. I've done Aux-Fed, and it didn't appreciablly make a difference over what I can accomplish with high-pass filters on the channel strips and some EQ, especially since most of my mixing is on a Presonus board with variable HPF on each channel and a very flexible EQ section. At lot of it is simply going to depend on the source material...if your guitar players have the bass cranked up and are feeding you a bunch of low end (a la the 50hz "chug" that was mentioned) you may still have some difficulties. HPF's and crossovers all have a slope, so you're not completely eliminated source material...you have to adapt as best you can. My suggestion is to try it with your system and see if it works...if it doesn't go back to aux-fed and get your break music into a channel strip so you can roll it into the subs.

 

[RDUB]

Good read. I am definitely in the aux fed subs camp, though. I've found that even using the hpf's on most boards on vocals and such, there is still too much information going to the subs. The low information results in modulation with the other fundamental frequencies, and can rob clarity. I find that vocals often sound muddier. I'd rather keep that out of the mix.

If all of the sounds coming from stage were absolutely perfectly balanced, compressed, and mastered, like recorded music, it wouldn't be necessary. In the real world, with less than optimum and constant levels, and stage bleed to compete with, this method gives another level of control, technical and artistic.

My practice is to use an aux buss to feed kick, toms, bass, a bit of keys, and mixed music - iPod for music between sets, etc - to the subs.

 

[MNAirHead]

OPINION --- ZERO SUBS on an mp3

Why?

1-you don't want the mp3 sounding better than the band
2-Breaks are a great time to let patrons chill out... talk with thieir friends
3-Breaks are where you want to remind your guests to buy stuff instead of dance

 

[walterw]

meh; rather than deliberately making the break music sound thin and bad, just keep it low.

 

[Marley's Ghost]

Great ideas here. Thanks for sharing your experiences.

A few points of clarity might help here.

1) I want to try out the BBE sonic maximizer/xover with the band live. It seems to tighten the overall sound when I use my small system for DJ work. If I go aux out directly to the sub amp there is no use for it unless I set the xover frequency to 100hz and only run it to the mains. Which is another option.

2) At certain places the club wants to keep a constant high energy DJ type mix going through the breaks to keep people dancing and bring in others passing by. No one else has experienced this before? It also allows us to take a bit longer breaks without killing the groove and sending people out the door.

 

[walterw]

you still use the crossover with aux-fed subs!

the tops boxes still only get (say) 100Hz and up, while the subs still only get 100 and below, with a cut-off at (say) 40Hz.