Double Bass Saddle height

[cocas]

Hi all,

I frequently read posts on talkbass, you guys are a fountain of knowledge and always give me food for thought.
I have searched for answers for my dilemma and have yet to find an appropriate answer:
I am using spiro mittels for almost an year, before I was using the weichs and I much prefer the sound of the mittels, both arco and pizz.
However, I feel it is still a challenge sometimes to start the string with the bow, specially the A string which has a wolf at the A octave (harmonic and "fretted") and I'm using a wolf eliminator on that string. It helped a lot even if the string is a bit harder to start with the bow than the rest of the strings. I find the overall tension of the strings may play a role, since on my other bass, a plywood that has weich and lower neck angle it is considerably easier to start the string while bowing.

So I came across this adjustable saddle by Moser that would allow me to aliviate some tension by reducing the angle at the tailpiece and I was wondering if the reduced tension would make a considerable improvement to the playability. And also, if by doing so, the tone of the mittels would change. If they would just sound like weichs (that have lower tension), or if they would still sound like mittels but with less tension.

I am also considering if by reducing the tension at the tailpiece but replacing the E and A with starks wouldnt allow me to keep the same tension on the top and have that great volume that I get with the mittels, while having a more flexible D and G ( and maybe the thicker gauge would help get rid of the wolf at the A string ).

So would a thicker gauge with less tension sound different than a thiner gauge with higher tension?

I also realize the theoritical tension of the string if given only by the string length from the nut to the bridge, but the perceived tension aka flexibility of the strings is imho also influenced by the angles at the nut and bridge.

So any thoughts on all this?

Thank you guys!

 

[porkynuggets]

It would definitely affect the tension or pressure on the top plate. Good or bad I couldn't say, I look forward to reading the responses of those more knowledgeable than me.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Spending the money and trying things on your particular bass is the only way to know for sure.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Hasn’t the different position of the tailpiece (I doubt it is exactly at the same position as before) and the synthetic tailgut of the Moser saddle changed the wolf?

Which position of the saddle is better or worse in sound can highly depend on the bass. You can only try.

I’m pretty sure that a different underlength (because of a different tailgut length) changes the wolf without any string experiments.

Make knots with a slip and secure the ends with another slip knot, so you can open the knots if you want to change the length.

Of course only open the knots without any string tension (might be a bit hard even then and with the slip, I did it once) and you may need a new carbon tailgut if you cannot open the knot you already made now.

I put a square wood between bass and saddle to raise the saddle over the top to avoid damage of the top.

Try to find the best position of the saddle height for your instrument and experiment with the tailgut length. The only cost is time.

If you are not happy after this try a stark E only. That might change the balance of the other strings above to move the wolf.

 

[cocas]

Hasn’t the different position of the tailpiece (I doubt it is exactly at the same position as before) and the synthetic tailgut of the Moser saddle changed the wolf?

I haven't changed the saddle yet, just pondering if it will accomplish something, as it will probably need the intervention of a luthier.

I hadn't thought of messing with the tailgut length, but if the saddle stays at the same height wouldnt that just change the afterlength by displacing the tailpiece and not necessarily change the tension of the strings? It can change the wolf sure, but my main beef while bowing is the string tension I think.

 

[Mark_T]

A raised saddld shouldn’t change tension, it only changes the downward force on the top.

 

[cocas]

A raised saddld shouldn’t change tension, it only changes the downward force on the top.

I'm not so sure, when I change the height of the bridge I feel the difference in stiffness even on open strings

 

[bassmanbrent]

I'm not so sure, when I change the height of the bridge I feel the difference in stiffness even on open strings

This gets discussed quite a bit. I think that, while the actual tension when measured is the same, the perceived tension changes. Don't ask me how that works but it is a thing. All that really matters is that it feels like less stiffness I guess.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Raising the bridge is close to the opposite of raising the saddle.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

Raising the bridge is close to the opposite of raising the saddle.

 

[RSBBass]

What changes isn't the tension but the elasticity. The higher the break angle over the bridge the less elasticity which is perceived as tension.

 

[cocas]

Hasn’t the different position of the tailpiece (I doubt it is exactly at the same position as before) and the synthetic tailgut of the Moser saddle changed the wolf?

Which position of the saddle is better or worse in sound can highly depend on the bass. You can only try.

I’m pretty sure that a different underlength (because of a different tailgut length) changes the wolf without any string experiments.

Make knots with a slip and secure the ends with another slip knot, so you can open the knots if you want to change the length.

Of course only open the knots without any string tension (might be a bit hard even then and with the slip, I did it once) and you may need a new carbon tailgut if you cannot open the knot you already made now.

I put a square wood between bass and saddle to raise the saddle over the top to avoid damage of the top.

Try to find the best position of the saddle height for your instrument and experiment with the tailgut length. The only cost is time.

If you are not happy after this try a stark E only. That might change the balance of the other strings above to move the wolf.

So I tried a couple things, since I was going to see my luthier to have a bow rehaired, I figured if I let the soundpost fall, he'd reset it.

I adjusted the length of the tailgut to get a shorter afterlength (2 octaves and a 4th, it was previously 2 octaves and a minor/major 3rd) and while it considerably diminished the wolf on the A string, I lost quite a bit of bass frequencies, and the bass sounded harsher and a tad more rigid and more difficult to bow.

After that I tried to drop 1 tone off all strings (EADG->DGCF) to see of the smaller tension would help with the tone. It did, the bass got the body and warmth back while keeping definition.

So I figured the top was probably being choked with the Mittels, but since I like the sound so much, I tried to raise the saddle a bit in a temporary manner, two strips of mass loaded vinyl at 5mm each, and it did help a bit (at standard tuning) but I think I'll have to get even less tension on the top, so the moser adjustable saddle is looking more and more tempting.

@DoubleMIDI I've read on other thread you have the moser saddle on your bass, are you happy with it? Also, do you know the maximum height off the top it can get?

 

[DoubleMIDI]

So I tried a couple things, since I was going to see my luthier to have a bow rehaired, I figured if I let the soundpost fall, he'd reset it.

I adjusted the length of the tailgut to get a shorter afterlength (2 octaves and a 4th, it was previously 2 octaves and a minor/major 3rd) and while it considerably diminished the wolf on the A string, I lost quite a bit of bass frequencies, and the bass sounded harsher and a tad more rigid and more difficult to bow.

After that I tried to drop 1 tone off all strings (EADG->DGCF) to see of the smaller tension would help with the tone. It did, the bass got the body and warmth back while keeping definition.

So I figured the top was probably being choked with the Mittels, but since I like the sound so much, I tried to raise the saddle a bit in a temporary manner, two strips of mass loaded vinyl at 5mm each, and it did help a bit (at standard tuning) but I think I'll have to get even less tension on the top, so the moser adjustable saddle is looking more and more tempting.

@DoubleMIDI I've read on other thread you have the moser saddle on your bass, are you happy with it? Also, do you know the maximum height off the top it can get?

I removed the original saddle (as it was loose anyway), put a 1x1 cm piece of wood there to raise the Moser saddle over the top (1 mm less height would have worked too as there needs to be 3-4 mm space between Moser and top) and put some wood off the sides of the Moser HVU so that it fits.
I use the middle position and it is raised approximately 3.2 cm from the original saddle.
The height difference is about 1.1 cm, so in my case raised by 2.1 cm, 3.2 cm and 4.3 cm.
As I said, it could have been 1 mm lower. Maybe have different height wood pieces below for fine tuning, just make sure the Moser doesn’t sit too low onto the top.

The tailgut stretched a lot when I mounted it the first time, so using a slip to be able to change the afterlength was a good idea. Still have the slip, but secured them against unplanned opening.

You need to use the carbon fiber/kevlar (?) tailgut as it is very long, goes from the HVU down to the endpin assembly and back and up over the saddle to the tailpiece.
Easy with mine that has two holes from top to bottom. Not sure how well it works with the ones hiding the tailgut on the back.

 

[cocas]

Thanks a lot for the guidance @DoubleMIDI ! I'll order it then, looks promising. Did you glued yours? The fact that there is a small gap between the top and the saddle doesn’t cause it to be instable?

I guess I'll really have to use the kevlar tailgut, since mine is about 44cm long, and even at the maximal length I still can't get the good afterlength (specially after my raised saddle experience). I understand the kevlar rope can stretch a bit after installation, did took a while to settle? Does it still get out of tune more than the conventional steel cable? I reckon one could probably use a longer tailgut made of braided steel, eventually coated in plastic to prevent damage to the saddle

 

[DoubleMIDI]

I don’t think a steel tailwire would work well. Don’t forget that two loops go around the endpin assembly and the wood of the movable saddle might get damaged by a steel cable.

The stretching is mostly the first time. No tuning dependencies. My synthetic core strings took longer to settle than the tailgut.

Well, you asked if I like it. I just mounted it to take some pressure from the top because it has been sunken over the years/decades. Might not been needed as later I was told that most probably the shrinking width of the top pulled the top down.
The middle position is a bit weak, but acceptable, the top is too weak and the lowest position just a bit less loud than the original saddle.

No, no glue. The HVU holds by itself. It is just a bit complicated to hold it in place and tune up until it holds by itself. Additional hands help, but I did it myself (needing several attempts).

 

[AGCurry]

So I figured the top was probably being choked with the Mittels, but since I like the sound so much, I tried to raise the saddle a bit in a temporary manner, two strips of mass loaded vinyl at 5mm each, and it did help a bit (at standard tuning) but I think I'll have to get even less tension on the top, so the moser adjustable saddle is looking more and more tempting.

For the sake of clarity, can we use the right words? Every time we discuss subjects like this, someone has to remind us that tension is a constant for a given string at a given pitch and speaking length. Nothing you are contemplating doing will change tension. What you're talking about reducing is pressure, or force, on the top.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

He at least said “to the top”. Some of us non-native English speakers/writers (including me) might not always have the correct terms present. But trying to learn them would be a good intention.

 

[cocas]

For the sake of clarity, can we use the right words? Every time we discuss subjects like this, someone has to remind us that tension is a constant for a given string at a given pitch and speaking length. Nothing you are contemplating doing will change tension. What you're talking about reducing is pressure, or force, on the top.

Sorry, english is not my first language. For me, forces of compression (or traction) are synonims with tension to the inert material being discussed, but I recognize it is probably not the best term, specially when string tension is involved.

Thanks for the pic, DoubleMIDI, it helps a lot, since details about the saddle are scarce online, not even the dimensions. I'll try all the positions to choose the ideal top load, maybe fine tune it using a spiro stark E

 

[cocas]

Hi all,

I'm back with some news after experimenting a bit.

I changed my tailgut from a thinner steel cable to a braided thicker cable that was more adjustable. I guess stiffer was well, but pretty handy to dial in the optimal tailgut length and string afterlengths.

I tried a Wittner composite tailpiece, a Moser HVU adjustable saddle, a Spirocore Stark E (heavy gauge) and played with the afterlengths.

I didn't like the Wittner tailpiece, even though it had a clearer tone, I missed the woodiness and warmth that I need from an acoustic double bass.

The Moser adjustable saddle was quite interesting, even though I only used the lowest position, since I tried it over my original saddle with a bit of padding to secure things up. It really released the tightness I felt while playing pizz, like I was playing 1 whole step lower. Almost like the resistance I get from the strings when I'm playing an acoustic bass, and longer sustain. So I started missing the punch and attack so typical of upright basses in jazz. Also noted a slight loss of volume. And that was the lowest position, so I guess the other two would really quiet down the bass. I was not a fan of the esthetic and bulkiness of the Moser saddle as well, even if it was not properly installed.

So I went back to my MLV shims, the new braided steel cable and an afterlength of 2oct and a 4th and that seem to be the best compromise for my bass and taste.

I lastly tried a Spirocore Stark E to see what all the rage was about, and even though it did sound powerful, I ended up going back to the Mittel E because the other strings felt tighter, almost like when I changed the saddle height, guess it was the change to the top pressure.

Seen as it took quite a while to try these things out, I figured I'd take a minute at each modification and record a small video to listen to the differences with a fresh head. Thought I'd share my experience if that can help others.