Sadowsky Preamp Pedals - Why no Vintage Tone Control?

[Mike in MI]

I'm a fan of the Sadowsky onboard preamp. I find it to be the perfect amount of tonal flexibility without being overly complicated. The thing I like best about it is the Vintage Tone Control. I use it more than the bass or treble knob by far.

But...

Like most of us here, I have other basses. Unfortunately, I never end up with active basses that have a passive tone control. So I figured rather than attempt to add a passive tone control to every active bass I own, I could just grab a Sadowsky preamp pedal - primarily so I have the ability to access the VTC.

Sadowsky makes extremely fine instruments, but the real bread and butter in my opinion is the preamp. I would assume Mr. Sadowsky would agree, since he puts the same exact preamp in every Sadowsky bass that I'm aware of except the Metro Express.

So this leads me to my question. If a large part of the Sadowsky mystique is the preamp, why do the Sadowsky preamp pedals not have the VTC? It would be like if Famous Original Ray's Pizza (or your Ray's of choice) started operating a food truck, but it only sold Sicilian slices.

I'm not a tech guy, so it makes me wonder if maybe there is a technical reason why a traditional passive tone control can't be placed in a pedal.

Does anyone know specifically why the Sadowsky preamp pedals do not have a VTC? Also, is there a pedal out there that does offer what I'm looking for?

Much thanks in advance!

 

[sunbeast]

I'm a fan of the Sadowsky onboard preamp. I find it to be the perfect amount of tonal flexibility without being overly complicated. The thing I like best about it is the Vintage Tone Control. I use it more than the bass or treble knob by far.

But...

Like most of us here, I have other basses. Unfortunately, I never end up with active basses that have a passive tone control. So I figured rather than attempt to add a passive tone control to every active bass I own, I could just grab a Sadowsky preamp pedal - primarily so I have the ability to access the VTC.

Sadowsky makes extremely fine instruments, but the real bread and butter in my opinion is the preamp. I would assume Mr. Sadowsky would agree, since he puts the same exact preamp in every Sadowsky bass that I'm aware of except the Metro Express.

So this leads me to my question. If a large part of the Sadowsky mystique is the preamp, why do the Sadowsky preamp pedals not have the VTC? It would be like if Famous Original Ray's Pizza (or your Ray's of choice) started operating a food truck, but it only sold Sicilian slices.

I'm not a tech guy, so it makes me wonder if maybe there is a technical reason why a traditional passive tone control can't be placed in a pedal.

Does anyone know specifically why the Sadowsky preamp pedals do not have a VTC? Also, is there a pedal out there that does offer what I'm looking for?

Much thanks in advance!

The VTC is just a typical passive tone control, no mojo there. In an active bass you’d ideally want a tone control to come before the preamp as the buffer in the preamp will change the behavior of a passive tone control if you place it after. So in order for a Passive tone control in an outboard preamp to work with both passive and active instruments it would have to be placed after the preamp and it might behave differently than the typical Sadowsky VTC. Still could be done and be useful, but it’s something that is better done in the bass itself and ideally before any active circuitry

 

[Mike in MI]

The VTC is just a typical passive tone control, no mojo there. In an active bass you’d ideally want a tone control to come before the preamp as the buffer in the preamp will change the behavior of a passive tone control if you place it after. So in order for a Passive tone control in an outboard preamp to work with both passive and active instruments it would have to be placed after the preamp and it might behave differently than the typical Sadowsky VTC. Still could be done and be useful, but it’s something that is better done in the bass itself and ideally before any active circuitry

That makes a lot of sense to me. I guess that would explain why Sadowsky doesn't include it on his pedals. I have heard a few references to using a low pass filter after the preamp to have a similar effect as a passive tone control, but haven't had an opportunity to try one nor have I been able to find sound clips comparing a low pass filter placed after a preamp to a traditional tone control placed before a preamp.

 

[sunbeast]

That makes a lot of sense to me. I guess that would explain why Sadowsky doesn't include it on his pedals. I have heard a few references to using a low pass filter after the preamp to have a similar effect as a passive tone control, but haven't had an opportunity to try one nor have I been able to find sound clips comparing a low pass filter placed after a preamp to a traditional tone control placed before a preamp.

You can put a passive tone control after a buffer/preamp, but it requires totally different values of components and the response tends to still be completely different. For example, the passive tone control that comes with EMG actives is a 25Kohm pot and a .1uf capacitor. If you used those values with a passive pickup it would be incredibly dark at any setting, but with the EMGs it is pretty subtle (acts something like a 500K pot and .022if capacitor in a passive bass).

Personally I really love a LPF filter with frequency and resonance controls to emulate my favorite tones from passive basses but in a much more versatile package. I use a Lusithand NFP preamp built into an outboard box for this and can use it with all my basses and anywhere in the signal chain.

 

[Mike in MI]

You can put a passive tone control after a buffer/preamp, but it requires totally different values of components and the response tends to still be completely different. For example, the passive tone control that comes with EMG actives is a 25Kohm pot and a .1uf capacitor. If you used those values with a passive pickup it would be incredibly dark at any setting, but with the EMGs it is pretty subtle (acts something like a 500K pot and .022if capacitor in a passive bass).

Personally I really love a LPF filter with frequency and resonance controls to emulate my favorite tones from passive basses but in a much more versatile package. I use a Lusithand NFP preamp built into an outboard box for this and can use it with all my basses and anywhere in the signal chain.

Thanks for the recommendation on the Lusithand. I assume it's similar to the LPF system that Alembic uses? I've never had the money to afford one, but have played an Alembic a couple of times and loved the tonal flexibility (along with everything else!). Is it difficult to build a preamp into an outboard box? I read about that periodically but have never attempted it myself - or is there a similar LPF filter pedal that's available on the market?

 

[sunbeast]

Thanks for the recommendation on the Lusithand. I assume it's similar to the LPF system that Alembic uses? I've never had the money to afford one, but have played an Alembic a couple of times and loved the tonal flexibility (along with everything else!). Is it difficult to build a preamp into an outboard box? I read about that periodically but have never attempted it myself - or is there a similar LPF filter pedal that's available on the market?

Indeed it’s the same idea as an Alembic or Wal onboard filter preamps. I have filter preamps from 4 different makers now, but that design is surprisingly rare in an outboard version (and relatively rare in onboard preamps as well compared to typical EQ boost/cut preamps). Broughton makes a pedal called the Resonant Filter Equalizer (RFE) that looks great for those types of tones (I really want one!), and the new Empress Deluxe Parametric could likely be dialed in to do something similar (it has both LPF and full parametric EQ). Building any of the onboard preamps into a box is easy too, I’ve now done it with 3 different ones.

 

[Mike in MI]

Indeed it’s the same idea as an Alembic or Wal onboard filter preamps. I have filter preamps from 4 different makers now, but that design is surprisingly rare in an outboard version (and relatively rare in onboard preamps as well compared to typical EQ boost/cut preamps). Broughton makes a pedal called the Resonant Filter Equalizer (RFE) that looks great for those types of tones (I really want one!), and the new Empress Deluxe Parametric could likely be dialed in to do something similar (it has both LPF and full parametric EQ). Building any of the onboard preamps into a box is easy too, I’ve now done it with 3 different ones.

Thanks again! I've got to explore all those options. Also, it's good to know its easy to build an onboard preamp into a box since it is something I've thought about doing for a while.

I can understand why you have filter preamps from 4 different makers - It's something I've coveted since trying the Alembic, and I've always wondered why they aren't more common in their onboard form. I would think having it standard (or at least as an option) would be a great way for some of the lesser-known boutique builders to set themselves apart. Or maybe someone like Ibanez could offer it on one of their higher-end lines, since their preamps tend to be pretty much the same across a lot of their basses, even as the pickups upgrade with their more expensive models.

 

[sunbeast]

Thanks again! I've got to explore all those options. Also, it's good to know its easy to build an onboard preamp into a box since it is something I've thought about doing for a while.

I can understand why you have filter preamps from 4 different makers - It's something I've coveted since trying the Alembic, and I've always wondered why they aren't more common in their onboard form. I would think having it standard (or at least as an option) would be a great way for some of the lesser-known boutique builders to set themselves apart. Or maybe someone like Ibanez could offer it on one of their higher-end lines, since their preamps tend to be pretty much the same across a lot of their basses, even as the pickups upgrade with their more expensive models.

Here’s one of a handful of threads with some filter-based preamp discussion: Wal and other filter-based preamps
I think a filter type preamp might be tough for a larger audience, as it can be a learning curve for people used to being able to make more surgical boosts and cuts with an onboard preamp and a lot of players depend on those kinds of extreme EQ sculpting that a filter just couldn’t reach alone.

 

[foal30]

I’ve never played a Sadowsky Bass but been using the outboard preamp for maybe 25-30 years

lovely piece of kit.

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

Indeed it’s the same idea as an Alembic or Wal onboard filter preamps. I have filter preamps from 4 different makers now, but that design is surprisingly rare in an outboard version (and relatively rare in onboard preamps as well compared to typical EQ boost/cut preamps). Broughton makes a pedal called the Resonant Filter Equalizer (RFE) that looks great for those types of tones (I really want one!), and the new Empress Deluxe Parametric could likely be dialed in to do something similar (it has both LPF and full parametric EQ). Building any of the onboard preamps into a box is easy too, I’ve now done it with 3 different ones.

The Empress Para EQ Deluxe could definitely pull off that sort of thing by combining the LPF with a tight Q on one of the parametric bands set to the same frequency. The Source Audio EQ2 can do the same thing, though in a less-obvious and intuitive manner (but it does have presets, so you could set up different sounds, or sounds for different basses, and recall them).

 

[Mike in MI]

The Empress Para EQ Deluxe could definitely pull off that sort of thing by combining the LPF with a tight Q on one of the parametric bands set to the same frequency. The Source Audio EQ2 can do the same thing, though in a less-obvious and intuitive manner (but it does have presets, so you could set up different sounds, or sounds for different basses, and recall them).

That's good to know. I was just checking out the Empress online. I like the idea of having both a parametric EQ and filter in one pedal. The reviews seem to confirm that it is extremely flexible once you get the hang of using it. I know from my own experience there is a bit of a learning curve with adjusting a LPF, but learning the settings you like is part of the fun of it.