Double Bass Sanity check

[crd]

Is it possible to have zero left hand noise when playing pizz? Is this a matter of getting the scoop/camper right on a fingerboard? When I left my fingers I get a clank/string noise when pizzing that drives me nuts. I have zero left hand string noise when using the bow. It shows up mostly when crossing between the A and E string. Since it shows up only when I am pizzing I think it may be set-up related rather than technique. Although I am generally of the school of, just play louder than the buzz I thought I'd check and see if this happens to other "jazz" players. Is this what's known as growl? If so, I hate it. I can't remember when it started showing up. I am lucky enough to have some serious practice time these days so am spending a lot of time recording myself and thinking about my acoustic sound.

I can make a quick video of what I am talking about if the above isn't clear.

 

[bassmanbrent]

What you’re describing doesn’t sound like growl. The clanking sound you get when releasing a string used to really bug me and I never found a setup solution to lessen it. I found I could avoid it, for the most part, when recording by being careful with my technique. Eventually I stopped worrying about it and just tried to play well. Your results may vary

 

[GretschWretch]

If no one but you can hear it, should it really be that worrisome?

 

[crd]

If no one but you can hear it, should it really be that worrisome?

Standing next to a drum set an audience wouldn't notice it. Solo they would. I don't anyone would find it objectionable but I'm irritated by any unintended sound my instrument makes.

I think the next time I get a seasonal adjustment, I will add some scoop to the E and A strings. Just a touch...

People discuss arco like it is a magic bullet for a strong left hand. Arco gives me a lot more wiggle room than a big pizz as far as being precise with my left hand technique.

 

[Don Hergert]

I also get a fair amount of technique noise from my E and A strings, and it seems very noticable when I'm playing alone.. The D and G strings play quietly. My E and A strings are wound and thick, my D and G strings are not wound and they are thinner.

I suspect it's a combination of thick wound strings combined with finger strength. The D and G strings being thinner have less excursion so they also have less action height, plus they are closer to being within optimal finger reach so I can stop those strings more efficiently,.

Fingerboard relief is up to spec and I don't get fingerboard buzz.

Technique practice of course helps everything, but it hasn't completely resolved this.

I've tried other strings that produced noticably less technique noise, but they had other disadvantages, so I'm staying with my preferred strings and putting up with technique noise.

I've been told by jamming partners and band mates that this technique noise isn't noticable when playing with other folks and barely noticeable from any distance.

 

[Jason Sypher]

I know exactly what you are talking about and had the problem after I’d been playing for a year or so. It’s a chattery clacking as you lift up your finger. I hated it. What I did was practice very slow chromatic exercises across the strings in half then first and second positions. I kept my fingers down as I ascended and lifted them one at a time descending making sure to lift off as cleanly and vertically as possible. I also experimented with muting with my left hand as well as developing a clean pull-off. The noise went away after a few days of this extra attention to detail.

 

[crd]

I know exactly what you are talking about and had the problem after I’d been playing for a year or so. It’s a chattery clacking as you lift up your finger. I hated it. What I did was practice very slow chromatic exercises across the strings in half then first and second positions. I kept my fingers down as I ascended and lifted them one at a time descending making sure to lift off as cleanly and vertically as possible. I also experimented with muting with my left hand as well as developing a clean pull-off. The noise went away after a few days of this extra attention to detail.

That's helpful. Thanks. I never noticed it with gut strings because I think they maybe had less sustain than my current set-up. It's good to know that I can conquer it with some mindfulness. It shows up mostly on something like going from an Ab on the E string to a Db on the A string with my pinky. I did some experiments with my open strings today and discovered that I am getting some string buzz on the open A and E which makes me think that I may just need some more scoop in the fingerboard. BTW, I appreciate your work with Rhiannon Giddens ! Killer stuff.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

For open E and A you need the nut to be a bit higher. Try a few layers of paper in the E and A nut slots to verify.

The slow lifting of the fingers will work similar to a Sitar bridge where the string touches the bridge a bit away from the fixed end to generate higher harmonics, just on the other end of the string.
The harder the outer surface of the string and the more higher partial the string generates (low or undamped strings) the more you get of that transitional unwanted sound. Be quick to release the string to keep that as short as possible.
Growl is the same thing but in a steady state of not clamping the string hard enough to the fingerboard.

 

[David Potts]

I wonder if the direction or manner that you are pulling the lower strings has anything to do with this? Arco is probably a lot more consistent if you took a cross section of each string movement under the bow.

Another technical consideration is how much pronation of your wrist when using the A and E strings. Over pronating robs your fingers of strength and speed of drop and release IMO. Experiment with how far in towards your R hand your bass is turned. I like the idea that an imaginary arrow pointing from your chest is aimed approximately at the bridge or just above. As an orchestral player sitting on a stool this is relatively easy to adjust. I tried to be a jazz player and didn't quite fail. I stood with the lower edge of the bass back in my left groin and leaned/turned to balance the bass until the arrow again aimed towards the bridge. Both for arco and jazz (dance gigs really) this kept my left wrist almost flat on G D and A, and with minimal pronation allowing almost the same power and function on the E.

 

[crd]

I wonder if the direction or manner that you are pulling the lower strings has anything to do with this? Arco is probably a lot more consistent if you took a cross section of each string movement under the bow.

Another technical consideration is how much pronation of your wrist when using the A and E strings. Over pronating robs your fingers of strength and speed of drop and release IMO. Experiment with how far in towards your R hand your bass is turned. I like the idea that an imaginary arrow pointing from your chest is aimed approximately at the bridge or just above. As an orchestral player sitting on a stool this is relatively easy to adjust. I tried to be a jazz player and didn't quite fail. I stood with the lower edge of the bass back in my left groin and leaned/turned to balance the bass until the arrow again aimed towards the bridge. Both for arco and jazz (dance gigs really) this kept my left wrist almost flat on G D and A, and with minimal pronation allowing almost the same power and function on the E.

That is all interesting to think about. I haven't thought of the shape of my wrist being a factor. After not changing anything in my set-up for 15 years, I changed a lot of things including my instrument all at once, so I've been re-thinking a lot of the fundamentals of my technique. I also switched from 4 to 5 strings so perhaps I need to rethink where my hand is on the lower strings now that my fingerboard is a tide wider.

 

[crd]

For open E and A you need the nut to be a bit higher. Try a few layers of paper in the E and A nut slots to verify.

The slow lifting of the fingers will work similar to a Sitar bridge where the string touches the bridge a bit away from the fixed end to generate higher harmonics, just on the other end of the string.
The harder the outer surface of the string and the more higher partial the string generates (low or undamped strings) the more you get of that transitional unwanted sound. Be quick to release the string to keep that as short as possible.
Growl is the same thing but in a steady state of not clamping the string hard enough to the fingerboard.

Interesting. It may be gut made the sound it was just mellower. It's a good idea about the paper in the nut. I hate futzing with this stuff so will wait a few months and bother my luthier about it. I keep my action pretty high and as a result I think I need more camper/scoop/whatever in my fingerboard than he anticipated.

 

[Jason Sypher]

That's helpful. Thanks. I never noticed it with gut strings because I think they maybe had less sustain than my current set-up. It's good to know that I can conquer it with some mindfulness. It shows up mostly on something like going from an Ab on the E string to a Db on the A string with my pinky. I did some experiments with my open strings today and discovered that I am getting some string buzz on the open A and E which makes me think that I may just need some more scoop in the fingerboard. BTW, I appreciate your work with Rhiannon Giddens ! Killer stuff.

Thank you. I find that occasionally just bringing your attention to a problem will eradicate it. I will add that it happened to me with both steels and gut. Make sure your fingers are noting the string as vertically as is comfortable. I think of them as small hammers. Releasing a note is something everyone has to address at some point. Don’t freak out, just fix it. It’s very common.

 

[GretschWretch]

I probably am the least qualified to offer an opinion on this, but I would be careful about adding scoop. Nearly all my DBs have been decommissioned school instruments, and I have had to replace their fingerboards because the scoop from first to fifth position was so extreme that the only options were set the action low at the nut for 1-5 and have the strings choke out in the higher positions, or set the action where the strings clear the 'board at the higher positions but become difficult to depress over 1-5.

 

[Michael Glynn]

Some good advice here, but some basses just do this more than others, too. My carved bass has a loud clank on the E string. Technique, especially muting with left or right hand helps. In my case, the quicker I release the finger, the louder the clank sound is. On my plywood bass it doesn't happen, on other people's basses, it doesn't happen. When other people play my bass, it does happen. I've showed it to a few luthiers and they have all just kind of shrugged.

 

[Jason Sypher]

Some good advice here, but some basses just do this more than others, too. My carved bass has a loud clank on the E string. Technique, especially muting with left or right hand helps. In my case, the quicker I release the finger, the louder the clank sound is. On my plywood bass it doesn't happen, on other people's basses, it doesn't happen. When other people play my bass, it does happen. I've showed it to a few luthiers and they have all just kind of shrugged.

Something is amiss in this case. Either the board is off or the action too low, I dunno. How can you record with an instrument that clanks uncontrollably?

 

[crd]

Some good advice here, but some basses just do this more than others, too. My carved bass has a loud clank on the E string. Technique, especially muting with left or right hand helps. In my case, the quicker I release the finger, the louder the clank sound is. On my plywood bass it doesn't happen, on other people's basses, it doesn't happen. When other people play my bass, it does happen. I've showed it to a few luthiers and they have all just kind of shrugged.

I think we both might need some more fingerboard camper/scoop. I briefly had spiros on the bass I am using now before I put some synthetic hybrid strings on. I keep my action very high. I think my current set-up could be more "modern" jazz than what works best for me and these fancy strings. Getting the set-up right on a five string is kind of tricky.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I brought a bass I was thinking about buying to my luthier. It clanked. My luthier told me some basses are clankers, period, and to forget about it.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Can you mute the clank with your right Pizz hand? I end up doing this sometimes in the studio.

 

[crd]

Can you mute the clank with your right Pizz hand? I end up doing this sometimes in the studio.

This definitely helps. When going from the E to the A string I've been kind of palm muting the string which fixes it. I've been doing the Zimmerman book on the E and A strings, 1 - 1, 2 - 2, 4 - 4, slow. It's definitely an unorthodox approach but you gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. It won't be too long until my seasonal trip to my luthier so I will see what he says. Since this is a new bass and new fingerboard I think it will take a little bit to get it all dialed in. I think my preference for high action and low tension strings requires more scoop than the usual "modern" jazz set-up. This is definitely an issue that would only be noticeable in a studio.

 

[Michael Glynn]

Can you mute the clank with your right Pizz hand? I end up doing this sometimes in the studio.

Yes, this is the only sure way to do it. So it's not usually a problem, except sometimes when crossing from the E up to the D or G if I don't pay close attention. Going from E to A, my plucking finger generally will mute the E string after I strike through the A, so that's less of an issue.

How can you record with an instrument that clanks uncontrollably?

Very carefully.

This bass in general has a lot of finger noise in addition to the clank, which makes it a bit of a pain in the studio. On a gig, it's not really noticeable. It all started when I got a new fingerboard, which seemed to add a lot of high frequency information to the bass. I've gone through a million soundpost, bridge, and fingerboard adjustments at this point...