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Satin or Matte that won't shine up?

G

goodchicken

Sep 3, 2019
24
4
#1
All my satin or matte instruments have eventually shined up in spots that get touched a lot. People would always say that was just the way it was. These were all cheaper/midrange priced guitars and basses, so I wondered about the possibility of the finishes just not being good enough.

I do remember hearing or reading somewhere quite awhile back that there were satin/matte finishes that would not shine up. I don't remember specifics like what they actually were or who was using them, I wasn't super interested in finishing or building back then. Now I am doing some of my own building, so I'm curious how or truly if this problem can be resolved.

Thanks for any thoughts!
 
#2
I'm not aware of any satin finish that won't shine up eventually. From what I've read, satin finish is just gloss finish with an additive to dull the surface. Some of the 2k or UV activated finishes like Solarez are reputed to dry really hard, that might extend the life of satin anyway. The knock on Solarez was that it was a lot of work to level sand because its so hard.
 
#4
I'd like to know the answer to this as well but haven't ever found anything promising. What I've landed on for my instruments is wipe on satin poly buffed with paste wax. It's definitely not glossy by any means, but it has more shine than something near the matte end of the satin spectrum. The real good news is that it doesn't tend to wear in quickly, and it is very easy to "repair" in the sense of leveling the sheen back out by buffing again with more wax. For me, this makes it an acceptable finish. This is the latest I've done with that:

IMG_20200803_175547 (1).jpg


I do have one bass that I did with wiped on poly and buffed the surface to a much more matte sheen, without wax, but It's not that old and I don't play it enough to comment on how it'll behave. I'm guessing it'll wear unevenly and I'll probably break down and bring it up to the same point as all my other instruments.
 
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#5
The process of becoming shiny is literally the wearing away of finish. All finishes will to it eventually. Even the thickest poly finishes wear down to the wood after years of play. If you were to make a bass out of stainless steel, and play it often year after year, you woul wear down the top at some point. (I've actually seen pretty significant wear on stainless frets.).

The Grand Canyon use to be filled with solid stone/rock. Water wore it down over time.

Short version. You may find something that will take a little longer to shine up. But you'll never find a finish that will never shine up. It's physics.... friction and whatnot.
 
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#8
I will also say try the 3M scotchbrite pads, you'll be back to matte in no time. And indeed great on necks.

The crazy thing is it's your hands actually smoothing the finish that causes it.
Hard to believe our hands can be that abrasive, but paper bags are another amazing way to polish things.

Or even better to just live with it, you've got an honest relic.
Dirk
 
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#9
What we perceive the surface sheen of an instrument is based on both the actual surface texture as well as how light is scattered as it travels through the surface film and is reflected back to our eyes. Both of those aspects of the surface finish are important to address.

The physical scattering of light as it travels through the finish is a function of flatting agents that are mixed into the finish material, some are better than others and contain more or less of these flatting agents. You can purchase the material to mix into your own finishes, but you risk negative impact on the other qualities we look for in a protective finish.

The actual surface texture is a physical quality we control by the degree we "polish" the finish after it has fully cured. If you try and create the "satin or mat" look solely from surface conditioning then you'll have areas that increase in shininess where they are physically polished by mechanical contact with clothing, etc.

Many of us who are home brew finishers opt for the double-edged strategy of using a good finish with flatting agents within and surface abrasion by mechanical means.

My finish of choice is 3 coats of Minwax Satin Wipe On Poly (not the water-based variety) applied over 24 hours and followed by a LIGHT abrading of the surface with 0000 steel wool after a full cure.

I found out several years back that the quality of the results improved a lot by using GOOD steel wool, not the hardware store stuff. I HIGHLY advise anyone doing surface dulling of a top coat to use ONLY Liberion brand steel wool. It's readily available where quality woodworking materials are sold, and on Amazon if that's how you shop.

I have the large roll, but smaller quantities are also available.

https://www.amazon.com/Liberon-Steel-Wool-0000-Roll/dp/B001GUA82S

There are many who prefer the synthetic pads for dulling the final finish. I have all the grades, but truthfully I guess I'm old school as I'm really comfortable with 0000 steel wool unless there are magnetic pickups involved, and there are ways to easily protect those.

If you use that two-pronged technique then you can easily hit the finish with 0000 steel wool should you notice an area where the shine is bothering you. Quick n' easy.

Neck finishes in general are a bit more problematic because different people react differently to the how they perceive the "stickiness" of a neck finish. For those areas I've been experimenting with various wax (not oil) finishes. I have been most happy with heat application of either pure beeswax or pure Carnauba (NOT mixed commercial products). Both of these can produce a highly comfortable non-stick neck surface that has a finish texture that mirrors the degree of sanding you did for finish preparation. Te single drawback is the finish can trap a bit of internal moisture and may appear cloudy. It's very minimal, but that's why I have been experimenting with hard oils.

If you want to know more about heat-applied pure wax, see post #65 in this topic:

30” Scale Compact Semi-acoustic Fretless Bass Build

My last couple of guitars have had necks finished with Osmo PolyX Satin hard oil. This finish was developed for the European wood floor market and has been in use for many years. It is expensive, but it takes very little to finish a neck. I am very satisfied with the finish so far in my personal instruments.

I don't sand beyond 220 for anything I'm looking for finish to stick to or be absorbed by.

gEVCVnp.jpg
 
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#10
I forgot about paper shopping bags, its like 3000 grit paper or something. I used it a couple times to buff Watco Danish Oil, and it worked pretty well. I'd say a white a Scothbrite is comparable, they say that corresponds to 1000 grit, but how aggressively it cuts depends on the pressure used. If you want to make a convincing satin you have to be careful to buff in one direction only. They make scotchbrite pads for random orbit Sanders too, but I haven't tried them yet.
 
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#11
Steel wool works well, but I had a disastrous experience with it that put me off it forever: white oak chair, open grain + steel.wool = millions of tiny particles of slowing rusting steel in the open grain, creating tiny black iron stain spots all over the chair. That took me a while to cure by scrubbing the entire chair with a plastic toothbrush and multiple applications of oxcalic acid to kill the iron stains. Any wood with strong tanin content can do that, so I don't risk it. I haven't found anything that can be done with steel wool that can't be done as well with scotch brite. If you do use steel wool, make sure you blow off the tiny particles really thoroughly with compressed air.
 
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#13
Gilmourisgod said:
Steel wool works well, but I had a disastrous experience with it that put me off it forever: white oak chair, open grain + steel.wool = millions of tiny particles of slowing rusting steel in the open grain, creating tiny black iron stain spots all over the chair. That took me a while to cure by scrubbing the entire chair with a plastic toothbrush and multiple applications of oxcalic acid to kill the iron stains. Any wood with strong tanin content can do that, so I don't risk it. I haven't found anything that can be done with steel wool that can't be done as well with scotch brite. If you do use steel wool, make sure you blow off the tiny particles really thoroughly with compressed air.
Click to expand...

That's certainly a good thing to keep in mind, although I can't think of any situation where I'd use steel wool before the surface was sealed and/or finished. It's not a finishing step I'd employ in preparation for finish application.
 
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#16
Looks for the replies yall. Looks like I've got some more finishes to try as well as some steel wool experimentation.

I did wonder how a semi-gloss would work, that's a sheen I don't see used much on instruments. Maybe being closer to a gloss would better hide the transition to the glossy patches our hands make? A dead flat finish being the most obvious pita to keep consistent I assume.
 
#17
goodchicken said:
All my satin or matte instruments have eventually shined up in spots that get touched a lot. People would always say that was just the way it was. These were all cheaper/midrange priced guitars and basses, so I wondered about the possibility of the finishes just not being good enough.

I do remember hearing or reading somewhere quite awhile back that there were satin/matte finishes that would not shine up. I don't remember specifics like what they actually were or who was using them, I wasn't super interested in finishing or building back then. Now I am doing some of my own building, so I'm curious how or truly if this problem can be resolved.

Thanks for any thoughts!
Click to expand...


Greetings All,

I'm thinking your hand oils are making it shine up.

Wondering if wiping with ISO alcohol would clean it.

I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THIS WILL DO TO YOUR PARTICULAR FINISH?
 
#18
Gilmourisgod said:
I'm not aware of any satin finish that won't shine up eventually. From what I've read, satin finish is just gloss finish with an additive to dull the surface. Some of the 2k or UV activated finishes like Solarez are reputed to dry really hard, that might extend the life of satin anyway. The knock on Solarez was that it was a lot of work to level sand because its so hard.
Click to expand...
Well, the harder the finish, the easier it is to sand actually. That's why laquer is probably the most popular high end finish for wood. Because it gets so hard that it will powder sand up to 4000 grit. Poly, on the other hand, doesn't. Even fully cured, its actually relatively soft. Therefore, its extremely scratch and surface damage tolerant. The coating actually (ever so slightly) moves when contacted, and doesn't take damage that laquers or varnishes would. Cool right?
 
#20
goodchicken said:
I did wonder how a semi-gloss would work, that's a sheen I don't see used much on instruments. Maybe being closer to a gloss would better hide the transition to the glossy patches our hands make? A dead flat finish being the most obvious pita to keep consistent I assume.
Click to expand...

There's really two factors here. One - how damage/shine resistant a finish is. Obviously the material matters, but yes - a glossier finish does typically seem more resistant to further polishing as well.

The second aspect is repairability in the sense of being able to return a polished section to the desired level of sheen. In most cases, IME, it's much easier to "match" a glossier finish. Anyone can buff back to semigloss or satin but it can be really hard to buff a polished spot back to match a matte finish - it's usually easy to spot the repair unless it's a dead on exact match, whereas slightly glossier finishes like satin or semigloss tend to hide slight mismatches more easily.
 

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