Double Bass Scales - Harmony ??

[Bass.]

Ok, so I'm in the process of learning all of my scales, modes and diatonic harmony. I'm learning it on my own so it's continuously confusing (don't have the money for a teacher). The thing I would like to know is: how can one make a minor scale ''sound minor''?

Because a few days ago i found that regardless of what key i play in it sounds the same. If i play C major it'll sound one way.. and i play A minor it will wound exactly the same. so my real question, i suppose, is 'when using the same notes as other scales how do you go aobut making it sound the way the scale is ''supposed'' to'

Thanks

 

[AdaGio³]

Ok, so I'm in the process of learning all of my scales, modes and diatonic harmony. I'm learning it on my own so it's continuously confusing (don't have the money for a teacher). The thing I would like to know is: how can one make a minor scale ''sound minor''?

Because a few days ago i found that regardless of what key i play in it sounds the same. If i play C major it'll sound one way.. and i play A minor it will wound exactly the same. so my real question, i suppose, is 'when using the same notes as other scales how do you go aobut making it sound the way the scale is ''supposed'' to'

Thanks

The lowered 3rd scale degree gives it the real minor sound. But the 6th and 7th are also lowered in the natural minor. Using that will give a nice minor sound. And my favorite is the lowerd 3rd and 6th but leave the 7th as it is in the major scale, creating the Harmonic minor. I play around with these scales all the time

 

[Bass.]

yea, i know about that and the harmonic minor is defnitly one of my favourite minor scales but i was talking about more along the lines of when the scales have the same notes.. ie Cmaj to Amin or Ephrygian
thanks

 

[jazzbass72]

Forget scales and modes, they are pretty much useless... think chords and arpeggios instead and that will do the trick. Carol Kaye (carolkaye.com) has been advocating this for decades, and she's really right. If I were you, I'd look into taking a few private lessons with her when you can afford it (she's in So. Cal), or study from her books.

-Marco

 

[Marc Piane]

I totally agree with Marco. I think the most imporant thing is to know what is happening at a given moment in time. What note is in the melody? What is the written harmony? What is the piano player doing to that harmony at a given moment in the tune? How can you either play with or against this harmony?

I've been working really hard at being more melodic in my soloing. Scales make it really difficult to be melodic.

 

[Dave Speranza]

I'm not sure I understand your question entirely but it sounds like you are saying C Major and a minor sound the same. That makes me think you are possibly forgetting the leading tone (raised 7th degree) of the minor scale.

A C major scale up and down to me goes :
C D E F G A B C B A G F E D C

an a minor scale up and down goes:

A B C D E F# G# A G F E D C B A (melodic minor)

OR

A B C D E F G# A G# F E D C B A (harmonic minor)


If that is not what you are asking, then perhaps the tuning is what you want to know. In a minor scale it is my understanding that generally you should have wider whole steps and narrower half steps. For instance the half step between E and F in the a minor scale would be a smaller halfstep than between E and F in a C Major scale.

 

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

Already mentioned before: Think chords and arpeggios.

C = C, E, G
Am = A, C, E

You see, C major and A minor are closely related (relative major-minor), their chords share 2 notes (3 if you think seventh chords). BUT! C has a different funcion on each chord. Its the root in the C chord, but it's the THIRD on Am. This gives the C a different sound if it's played over an Am chord or a C. Same thing happens with all the other notes. Same names, different functions.

Once you get a hold of this, incorporate leading notes to each of the chord tones to add flavor.

Cheers!

 

[Kevin Gordon]

The difference between major and minor is the relationship of the notes to the root of the scale, and which notes are "important." The relative importance of the different notes is based on the harmony; in C major you have C, E, and G; in A minor, you have A, C, and E. If you are working in a basic diatonic framework when you leave these three notes one of two things happen; 1)the harmony changes-- you might go from a C major chord to a G major chord by playing C-B (the 3rd of G major). or 2) you use that note as a passing tone from one chord tone to another (this is usually done on a weak beat).
Put another way, in C major you have C, E, and G; in A minor, you have A, C, and E. The scales take their sound from these triads and the fact that chord progressions/melodies want to resolve to the tonic (C or A). If you play a B in a C major setting, this B will want to resolve to the C (tonic), while if you play B in a A minor setting, the B wants to resolve to the A. If you play a D in a C major setting, it will resolve to the C, while in a A minor setting to E (the fifth of the A minor chord, or the root of an E minor chord). Of course all of these aren't rules, but the way you either play the reslotions as expected or conciously break the "rules" is how you make your music interesting.
(Note: you don't necessarily have to raise the 7th degree in a minor scale, but your usually expected to note that you are using the Aeolian/natural minor mode)

 

[Bassist4Life]

I know what you're saying. Most of our ears are very familar with the "Major" sound. That makes an "A minor" scale sound a lot like a "C major" scale (depending on your tonic pitch). When you're playing an "A minor" scale; it probably sound like a "C major" scale, only you've ended two notes lower. Right?

Harmony is functional. You'll hear all of the harmonic colors when play your bass lines or solo lines along with another instrument playing chords.

Joe

 

[Hector Wolff]

Why are you worrying about this? As I see it, it is perfectly normal.

If you are talking about full scales and not arpeggios, it is normal for the A (natural) minor scale and C major scale to sound the same, depending on where you start and where you finish the run of notes.

The notes are all the same but the the pattern of intervals between the notes (which are really what give the different scales their distinctive characters) will be different depending on where you start the run of notes.

If you start the scale on A and end on A, the C major scale fingerings will give you an A (natural) minor scale, but if you start and end on C those same notes will give you will C major scale or if you start and end on G it will be a G7, and so on and on. The notes are the same but the order of intervals will be changed and so the characteristic sound will be different.

If you are talking about harmonic or melodic minor scales then they are a bit different and the similarity will not be as pronounced, or will only be noticable in one direction.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Isn't it all about "context"?

So - looking at scales in isolation as an exercise is not the way to do this - playing these things with others or even against a recorded backing, will alllow you to hear the different sounds as they are meant to function...?

 

[crookedfingers]

I had a hard time remembering modes and scales and then my cousin whispered in my ear the word Tetrachord. It turned out that they are very useful on the upright and lend themselves to the three finger technique. This is what I make of it:
There are four patterns that make up all scales (not including dim, and wholetone). I'll lable them H I J K. Here they are:
1 4 2 4
H >----------->--------------->----->
Whole Whole Half

1 4 1 4
I >----------->---->---------------->
Whole Half Whole

1 2 1 4
J >--->------------>---------------->
Half Whole Whole

1 4 1 4
K > ----------->------------>-------------->

Whole Whole Whole

Now every scale uses two of these. You play the first pattern on one string and then change strings for the second.
Check it out. I learned all of my modes in one night.
Ionian H,H
Dorian I,I
Phrigian J,J
Lydian K,H
Mixo H,I
Aolean I,J
Locrean J,K
Is this completely confusing? Questions?
-John

 

[fcleff]

I had a hard time remembering modes and scales and then my cousin whispered in my ear the word Tetrachord. It turned out that they are very useful on the upright and lend themselves to the three finger technique. This is what I make of it:
There are four patterns that make up all scales (not including dim, and wholetone). I'll lable them H I J K. Here they are:
1 4 2 4
H >----------->--------------->----->
Whole Whole Half

1 4 1 4
I >----------->---->---------------->
Whole Half Whole

1 2 1 4
J >--->------------>---------------->
Half Whole Whole

1 4 1 4
K > ----------->------------>-------------->

Whole Whole Whole

Now every scale uses two of these. You play the first pattern on one string and then change strings for the second.
Check it out. I learned all of my modes in one night.
Ionian H,H
Dorian I,I
Phrigian J,J
Lydian K,H
Mixo H,I
Aolean I,J
Locrean J,K
Is this completely confusing? Questions?
-John

I understand what you are saying here. There just seems to be one thing missing: in your first example, how do you tell WHERE to shift between 1-4 and 2-4?

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Wow, I just came across this thread tonight. Is it me or are all of you making it overly complicated?!?!

By themselves, an A minor scale will sound the same as a C Major scale. Even if I started a C Major scale on the A, it still sounds like a C Major scale - except that it started on the A (it usually does to my ears).

The only way for it to be different is that you have to consider what the chord or bass note you're playing it over. If you play a C Major scale with the sound of a low A in your head, you will hear A minor. Get something/someone to drone a single A while you play a C Major scale and you will hear the sound of A minor. The effect gets more pronounced if you play an A minor chord instead of droning just the A.

If you ever see a piano player practice scales, you don't see him just running scales with just the right hand alone. He voices a chord or bass note in the left hand and then plays the scale. The scale is in reference to what he's playing it against. I think this is why so many teachers advocate that melodic instrument players and bassists should learn a little piano. Piano makes this stuff easy as pie.

Personally, I think people make modal scales way too complicated. I never got a clear explanation through any book, but some good teachers made it plain to me.

Forget scales and just do chords and arpeggios? No way man! I may not be a pro nor spent any academic time as a musician but I've been taught that diatonic scales are indispensible. Just another tool in the arsenal, as are arps and chords. Combine diatonics with chromatics along with some arpeggios - that is some killer stuff to solo with and not that hard to learn if you can find the right teacher.

Diff'rent strokes I guess.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Scales, chords, arpeggios, yada yada yada -- these are all so many names of concepts. They aren't music.

These names are not mutually exclusive and independent of each other. Concepts overlap -- there are layers of description and entire families of description that maybe do, maybe don't relate to each other.

All of these concepts are simply there as a system for musicians to relate to musical information, to learn musical information, and to talk to other musicians about music. They are not music, they are ideas about music.

If somebody finds that the scale family of concepts doesn't really work for them as powerfully as the chord/arpeggio family (and I'm in that camp, too), and if their musical life is a happy one, if they are mature musicians who have little problem expressing their music through their instruments, then there is absolutely no reason at all for them to feel like they are lacking something by avoiding thinking in terms of scales. Those concepts are only a language for describing musical ideas -- they are not music.

Music theory is a lot like Staples or Office Depot -- it's a warehouse of ideas for organizing your thinking about music, just like those stores are warehouses of products for organizing your office and your work life. If I don't like expanding accordion folders, and if I haven't got organizational problems, then there sure as h*ll is no reason at all for me to have one. If you like your accordion folder, go for it. I don't like 'em -- stuff gets caught in there and I can't access the stuff the way I like.

 

[Marc Piane]

As a supporter of the arpeggio/chord thing this is how I think about it.

The chord symbol tells you a collection of notes or at least the function of a chord at a given point. A good pianist will take this symbols, analyze them, and do with them as they see fit.

As a bass player, or a soloist for that matter, you get the same message but you need to attack it one at a time instead of chords. Memorizing a list of scales is great but the fact is that the chord symbol and the melody note tell you everything you need to know.

Ex
Dm7 is D F A C. Automatically thinking D Dorian like many people do is limiting your pallet and not taking into consideration the function of the chord in the song. Now look at its function. What part of the cadence is it? What notes are in the melody? What are the 'important' or 'color notes'? Are you playing a descending or ascending line? From all of this you can distill a pitch collection. This collection is ever-changing based on the moment (chord subs, direction of line, desired color of line) but I feel is a more complete idea than just thinking scale/chord correspondence.

This sounds harder than just memorizing a list of scales but I think in the long run it is easier and gives you a more complete understanding of what's going on in the tune. Remember, it is a song not just a set of changes.

 

[Scottgun]

Damon makes a good point. Kinda like when an excellent jazz trumpet player was asked advice about improvisation he simply replied, "I just aim for the pretty notes." Of course through lots of practice one will start to recognize the "pretty" notes.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

Like I said... diff'rent strokes. I like making pretty notes with my scales (chromatic and diatonic) juxtaposed with my arps/chords thank you very much.

 

[Damon Rondeau]

Like I said... diff'rent strokes. I like making pretty notes with my scales (chromatic and diatonic) juxtaposed with my arps/chords thank you very much.

Right arm, brother bassist! More power to you...

 

[fcleff]

By themselves, an A minor scale will sound the same as a C Major scale. Even if I started a C Major scale on the A, it still sounds like a C Major scale - except that it started on the A (it usually does to my ears).


If you ever see a piano player practice scales, you don't see him just running scales with just the right hand alone. He voices a chord or bass note in the left hand and then plays the scale.

I disagree wholeheartedly here. When I play an A minor scale (or any minor scale, for that matter) I hear a minor scale. Sure, an underlying harmony may change that (or may not)but I don't think that was the point of the original post.

I also have to wonder how many pianists you have seen practice. It is very common to practice scales, and scales alone, in both hands at the same time.

I mean no offense here. I just think that you are seeing scales through a very small lense.