Double Bass Scales - Harmony ??

[Huy Nguyen]

I disagree wholeheartedly here. When I play an A minor scale (or any minor scale, for that matter) I hear a minor scale. Sure, an underlying harmony may change that (or may not)but I don't think that was the point of the original post.

You hear a minor scale because that's the sound you looking for in your minds-eye. You hear it relative to the A. Only by looking from the perspective of A, do you get a flat 3rd, natural 5th, and a flat 7th. If you don't have that predisposition it makes it hard for you to hear the minor scale. I was trying to address the original posters question.

I also have to wonder how many pianists you have seen practice. It is very common to practice scales, and scales alone, in both hands at the same time.

I played classical piano since I was 5 and didn't stop til I was 21. Yes scales can be played in both hands (I have the some hanon exercises burnt into my brain as a result), but I don't think it helped me be able to play it well in jazz where I feel that the sound needs to be ingrained in my system. I've dabbled with jazz piano and it only makes sense to me to play non-major scales this way to get the full effect of all of the harmonic qualities. Is this what alot of the others were referring to as "functional"?

I struggled trying to comprehend modal scales without a point of references like I described above. Once the scale has a reference, everything is clear as day to me. Maybe not for you or other people, but that's how my mind/ear works.

I mean no offense here. I just think that you are seeing scales through a very small lense.

None taken. I dunno, it seems pretty broad to me.

 

[Marc Piane]

The goal of these forums is to share ideas and perspectives. Certainly whatever works for you is the way to go.

When I teach improvization I rarely teach scales. Here's why.

Saying "play Dorian over a Minor Chord" or "Use a Lydian Dominant over a Dominant 7th chord" reduces the song to numbers and math. Once the melody ends the tune just becomes a set of changes. While at the core this is what is happening it is not a very musical way of playing. I think your ear needs to be your guide. This is harder when you get you brain into scale box.

 

[fcleff]

You hear a minor scale because that's the sound you looking for in your minds-eye. You hear it relative to the A. Only by looking from the perspective of A, do you get a flat 3rd, natural 5th, and a flat 7th. If you don't have that predisposition it makes it hard for you to hear the minor scale. I was trying to address the original posters question.

I played classical piano since I was 5 and didn't stop til I was 21. Yes scales can be played in both hands (I have the some hanon exercises burnt into my brain as a result), but I don't think it helped me be able to play it well in jazz where I feel that the sound needs to be ingrained in my system. I've dabbled with jazz piano and it only makes sense to me to play non-major scales this way to get the full effect of all of the harmonic qualities. Is this what alot of the others were referring to as "functional"?

I struggled trying to comprehend modal scales without a point of references like I described above. Once the scale has a reference, everything is clear as day to me. Maybe not for you or other people, but that's how my mind/ear works.

None taken. I dunno, it seems pretty broad to me.

I learned the modes with the Ionian as a reference point. I learned to hear all of the other modes as slightly different from this (#4th, b7th, etc.). I also learned to differentiate the minor modes (dorian, phrygian, locrian) from the major modes (lydian, mixolydian). I really don't feel like I have some preconceived 'tonal drone' in my head. I just hear the scales this way. When a C drone is playing, I can hear an A minor scale just fine.

It sounds like functional harmony is what works for you (this actually may be one of my pitfalls when improvising; I'm not a very good improviser, but I try). But I do think that we are on the same page when it comes to understanding functional harmony. You nailed it when you said, "...seems pretty broad to me." That's why I love theory/composition.

 

[Huy Nguyen]

I learned the modes with the Ionian as a reference point.

Well it was the concept was getting at. Ionian is your reference point. I was just trying to hash it out in a way that a virtual beginner could understand and hear. They may not have enough experience with scales in general to hear what we hear - stuff we can sorta take for granted.

It sounds like functional harmony is what works for you (this actually may be one of my pitfalls when improvising; I'm not a very good improviser, but I try).

Just cuz I say I can understand it that way doesn't mean it's coming out in my playing.

I understand the ideas of modal scales conceptually about how they are derived, but they never made any sense to me other than that they have a lot of colorful accidentals that sound "different" when played in a functional harmony kind of way. I agree to a certain extent with Damon that these are just "conceptual ideas". Ideas that can help can sometimes give you a handle on things but they don't make you "musical" by themselves. To me, you still have to cook the theory by practicing and noodling with it to get the musical gravy, if you pardon the expression. Heck, I'm running through arpeggios based on the diatonic scale (or modal chords i spose) right now just starting to not sound so mechanical for once.

 

[crookedfingers]

Modes are also important because when you start to hear the modes, you also start to hear the color tones that accompany them. Every mode becomes unique and beautiful. Its a good idea to spend a couple of months on one mode, play it in thirds, fourths,.... figure out for example where a b9 might sound good. When you have that down, spend a month or 2 on flat 9s. Spend a couple of months on every interval. Jazz is after all, a study of intervals. All of this knowledge is useless if you don't know them. Even if you haven't studied theory and you don't have a name for them, Jimmy Hill knew how to use #11s even though he couldn't read.

 

[fcleff]

Modes are also important because when you start to hear the modes, you also start to hear the color tones that accompany them. Every mode becomes unique and beautiful. Its a good idea to spend a couple of months on one mode, play it in thirds, fourths,.... figure out for example where a b9 might sound good. When you have that down, spend a month or 2 on flat 9s. Spend a couple of months on every interval. Jazz is after all, a study of intervals. All of this knowledge is useless if you don't know them. Even if you haven't studied theory and you don't have a name for them, Jimmy Hill knew how to use #11s even though he couldn't read.

I should really be more disciplined and do this. I feel a resolution coming on.

 

[lloccmttocs]

Personally I think all you who say that scales are a waste of time are out of your minds. When you sight read difficult songs. When there are crazy runs up a scale you can recall to all those time you spent working on scales. Not to mention if you work with scales your ear for how a tone is meant to sound will grow stronger. You may think you're playing intune but chances are if you don't have an excelent ear or a metronome on your stand you are probably a little flat or sharp.

Not to mention if you want to go anywhere for bass or do any kind of audition, scales (major and Melodic minor) are 9 times out of 10 required. Scales while they seem rudamentary are the most important part of growing as a musician. Who cares if you can play some cool sounding riff, Do you really think you can grow from playing a cool sounding riff? Arpeggios are good, but thats only 3 notes out of 7 of the scale. So there's my two cents.

 

[Marc Piane]

I think you are misunderstanding. No one is saying scales are a waste of time. I spend a good amount of every practice session doing scales. My objection is thinking of chord/scale correspondence when improvising. Remember my earlier comment...

"Saying "play Dorian over a Minor Chord" or "Use a Lydian Dominant over a Dominant 7th chord" reduces the song to numbers and math. Once the melody ends the tune just becomes a set of changes. While at the core this is what is happening it is not a very musical way of playing. I think your ear needs to be your guide. This is harder when you get you brain into scale box."


If you are truly going to improvise you need to mean every note. Do I? Not yet but I am working on it. One of the stepping stones to this goal (in my mind) is to no longer think scales when soloing. How many guitar players do we harp on for that exact reason?

 

[rprowse]

Hey, some good advice here. I come from the scale way of thinking. Take away the major scale notes and there are only 5 left. I like to know (hear) how these sound against different chords, especially the dom 7ths. These 5 notes are often where the pretty sounds live.

 

[aceshigh]

I'm from the Chord/Arpeggio school. I could never memorize scales well enough, although I will try to use the tetrachord method. I'm an Engineer and I love formulas like that.

I guess I do Chords/Triads/Arpeggios because I can play almost any chord or Triad like the back of my hand, even if it is 3am and I'm half asleep.

I never had time (a.k.a discipline) to sit down and go over the scales until I figure out the best way to use them or they get printed in my brain.

I also feel a resolution coming along....

 

[Menacewarf]

Perhaps a main impact of scales, and particularly more exotic scales, is they link the sounds of intervalls (in our minds) with physical actions.

It's the journey not the destination?!? (or some equally deplorable cliche)

 

[Goob Grouch]

I had a hard time remembering modes and scales and then my cousin whispered in my ear the word Tetrachord. It turned out that they are very useful on the upright and lend themselves to the three finger technique. This is what I make of it:
There are four patterns that make up all scales (not including dim, and wholetone). I'll lable them H I J K. Here they are:
1 4 2 4
H >----------->--------------->----->
Whole Whole Half

1 4 1 4
I >----------->---->---------------->
Whole Half Whole

1 2 1 4
J >--->------------>---------------->
Half Whole Whole

1 4 1 4
K > ----------->------------>-------------->

Whole Whole Whole

Now every scale uses two of these. You play the first pattern on one string and then change strings for the second.
Check it out. I learned all of my modes in one night.
Ionian H,H
Dorian I,I
Phrigian J,J
Lydian K,H
Mixo H,I
Aolean I,J
Locrean J,K
Is this completely confusing? Questions?
-John

Crookedfingers, That explanation is money in the bank

 

[Jeff Bonny]

Do you ever hear the term “scale progression” in common usage? No.
Do you often see a Maj7 9 11 13 chord? Not really….
So what’s with trying to superimpose scale over chords through a set of changes as a regular modus operandi? Doesn’t it seem more logical to let the melody, chord movement and to a large degree how you’re feeling that moment determine what notes you play or don’t play around the chord tones? Scales are useful to derive harmony from and very important to learn but as melodic devises for improvising through chord changes they tend to limit the non-chord tone choices you allow yourself. Imagine if someone had told Monk he had to play a mixolydian mode over a Dom7 chord and he’d believed it.

jeff

 

[JazzDoubleBass.]

Not sure if this is any help but if yo are going to practise modes it's not a good idea to practice them in one key i,e

C ionian
D dorian
E phrygian and so on

it will just 'sound like C major'

play the modes built on the same root

C ionian of C
C dorian of Bb
C phrygian of Ab etc


any thoughts?

 

[Charling]

Not sure if this is any help but if yo are going to practise modes it's not a good idea to practice them in one key i,e

C ionian
D dorian
E phrygian and so on

it will just 'sound like C major'

play the modes built on the same root

C ionian of C
C dorian of Bb
C phrygian of Ab etc


any thoughts?

I agree