Scales

[bassbass167]

Hello. Im curious about scales on bass. How many scales do serious bassist learn? With scales I don't mean specific scales such as blues and such, but more bass technical scales. Im coming from a jazz guitar background, and on guitar there are many scale systems like caged, berkleey, 3nps etc(each of these systems containis 5+ different scales). Do such scale systems exist on bass? In theory every guitar scale works on bass. Or do you guys simply just use a few scales and move them around duo to bass isomorphic nature.

Are the scales on upright bass same as bass guitar?

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

Hi bassbass,

Welcome to TB!

We are all different, and learn material, technical and otherwise, based on our interest and goals.
There is no one answer to "How many scales do serious bassist learn?" or
"Do you guys simply just use a few scales and move them around?" because, to reiterate, everyone is different.

Re. "Are the scales on upright bass same as bass guitar?"

Scales exist independent of instruments: someone please correct me if I have that wrong. Therefore, yes, identical. The technical execution is way different though.

Scale systems?

Sure, plenty of teachers have scale systems, but a C major scale is a C major scale on any instrument. The packaging/pedagogy does not make a scale more piano or more bass or more saxophone - it's still exactly the same scale. Please, again, if I misunderstand this, someone correct me.

Personally, I took the advice of Rufus Reid in his book "The Evolving Bassist" and learned the section he called "Scales You Should Know." Those are certainly not the only scales out there relevant to playing bass, but I think that list is a good place to start.

Again, welcome, I hope you get some answers that help, if mine doesn't.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Hello. Im curious about scales on bass. How many scales do serious bassist learn? With scales I don't mean specific scales such as blues and such, but more bass technical scales. Im coming from a jazz guitar background, and on guitar there are many scale systems like caged, berkleey, 3nps etc(each of these systems containis 5+ different scales). Do such scale systems exist on bass? In theory every guitar scale works on bass. Or do you guys simply just use a few scales and move them around duo to bass isomorphic nature.

Are the scales on upright bass same as bass guitar?

Yes, the scale systems on bass are called, scales

They are the same as on an upright. You can use any knowledge you've accumulated from your Jazz guitar background and port it over to the bass. It uses the same music principles as any instrument but has the added feature of the same mechanics as the guitar.

There is the added understanding that needs to be understood coming from the guitar world of having to be more supportive. Much like comping on the guitar in Jazz but on bass. I'm sure you understand all of that.

That's all I got

 

[mrcbass]

As @ProbablyTooLoud said, there's no universal method for application of scales (or pretty much anything for that matter) amongst bassists. Some don't even know if they are playing a scale at all and that's fine if it works for them.

there are many scale systems like caged, berkleey, 3nps etc(each of these systems containis 5+ different scales).

I'm a fairly well educated musician and while I heard of the "CAGED" system, I don't relate that to scales per say. From what I've been told it's a different way of forming chords by moving cowboy chord shapes up the neck. (I could very well be wrong about this.) I've never even heard of the other "systems" you mention.

As a working bassist doing primarily rock, blues, soul and country, I typically knowingly employ three scales in my parts: major, minor and pentatonic. These serve me well for 99% of anything I play. On occasion I will run across a more exotic song that needs a mode scale, but I typically just figure out the notes rather than bother with the fact that it is a mode scale.

There are different ways to play each scale and it's good to know all of them, but for my money as a bassist, understanding the three scales mentioned above and their associated arpeggios goes a long ways towards being a successful bassist.

 

[TroyK]

Hello. Im curious about scales on bass. How many scales do serious bassist learn? With scales I don't mean specific scales such as blues and such, but more bass technical scales. Im coming from a jazz guitar background, and on guitar there are many scale systems like caged, berkleey, 3nps etc(each of these systems containis 5+ different scales). Do such scale systems exist on bass? In theory every guitar scale works on bass. Or do you guys simply just use a few scales and move them around duo to bass isomorphic nature.

Are the scales on upright bass same as bass guitar?

I think, first of all, that if you have a deepish jazz guitar background, you're probably okay. I don't know those "scale systems" that you mention in a bass context, but as others have pointed out, scales are scales.

How many do you need? Depends on genre and what you are trying to express.

Same on upright as bass guitar? Same scales, sure. How fingerings are taught is or can be different. Upright players traditionally use 3 fingers (left hand) where as BG players traditionally use 4. The concept of learning one scale pattern and then just moving it up the neck to change keys... it works and it doesn't on upright. The notes are the same, you can play it that way, but while I might do so on BG, I'm much more inclined to use open strings when I can on doublebass to be 100% certain that that specific note is in tune and it helps me tune the note before and after it. It also helps me make a shift and gives my hand a break from an extended static hold. But to paraphrase someone above "a G harmonic minor scale is the same regardless of the instrument".

 

[SteveCS]

You could use these 'systems' but IME bass players tend to think beyond moveable patterns and shapes. We tend to know the notes within a scale, chord or key as well as the harmonic 'function'. Moveable shapes are a starting point that gets you playing but frequently fail to teach actual note names. The problem with the 'isomorphic nature' is that the shortcut on offer through moveable mechanics is highly tempting - mastering the same physical action in multiple positions is not the same as actually knowing the notes of the scale or key, or the notes and intervals within an arpeggio. And it is those things which are the 'bread and butter' of the bass and the way most accomplished bass players think.

 

[JonathanPDX]

First, a little terminology:

Scales are groupings of notes which span an octave (IE from C to the next C, in any key.) Scales exist regardless of instrument.

For reference, a KEY is not a scale, but follows the order of natural major/minor (IE CDEFGABC), can be spelled out using all 7 letters, and uses either sharps or flats but not both. This is basically the keys that could be written on a music staff. For this purpose, key is defined by having 0 to 7 sharps or flats, with the remainder being natural. That means you can have weird stuff like C# or Cb which have 7 sharps/flats, and sound the same as other scales (IE Db) even though they read differently on the staff.

Systems like CAGED are concepts for navigating the fretboard, so they are instrument-specific approaches, not instrument-independent scales. The way you finger notes for a given scale on a guitar would be completely different on a cello, piano, or saxophone even if you are producing the same pitches.

The goal of all these systems is ultimately to do a few things:
Understand your fretboard
Locate appropriate notes quickly
Play with efficient fingering patterns and minimal shifting
Provide you with the physical tools to locate and play musical ideas, which are going to come from you, not the system.

Every great bass player, I'd say even every good bass player, knows their fretboard well. You should be able to hear any note named and locate it in multiple positions immediately. The next step is understanding intervals, because as bass players much of what we do is based on spelling out chords or melodic elements one note at a time. If someone calls out C you should know that G is the 5th and that there's a G on the same fret, one string below your C, or above your C by moving up two frets and one string.

Every interval connects to the tonic (root) with patterns that, on the bass, are easy to move around and never deviate unless you get into odd tunings. So, knowing all your intervals, and all your note names, opens up the entire fretboard.

Scales are just groupings of those intervals, packaging them together. Your church modes (the 7 modes of the major scale) are usually a good starting point because that's the foundation for all Western music. If you master those you can play pretty much anything, and all the things that are NOT within that system, like harmonic minor, melodic minor, whole tone, diminished, etc. are all much easier to understand because they are taking this thing you know really well and just making small adjustments. If you can rock your Aeolian (natural minor) scale really well and blaze it up and down your instrument fluently, then it's a lot easier to master Harmonic Minor, because it's the same thing with a natural 7th. You aren't really learning a "new" scale as much as adapting the ones you have already mastered with some new shapes.

 

[SteveCS]

Agree with everything apart from this tiny (I was going to say minor but the pun was too obvious) point...

can be spelled out using all 7 letters, and uses either sharps or flats but not both.
...
If you can rock your Aeolian (natural minor) scale really well and blaze it up and down your instrument fluently, then it's a lot easier to master Harmonic Minor, because it's the same thing with a natural 7th.

Consider the key D minor, key signature 1 flat (relative major = F). The minor scale leading tone (or Major 7th, if you prefer) in that harmonic minor scale is C#. So they do both get used side by side within the diatonic framework:

 

[JonathanPDX]

Agree with everything apart from this tiny (I was going to say minor but the pun was too obvious) point...



Consider the key D minor, key signature 1 flat (relative major = F). The minor scale leading tone (or Major 7th, if you prefer) in that harmonic minor scale is C#. So they do both get used side by side within the diatonic framework:
View attachment 6975765

That is a scale, not a key.

 

[SteveCS]

That is a scale, not a key.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The accidentals used to raise the 6th and 7th, and the notes created by them, are part of the minor key, I.e. they are diatonic. The fact that they don't appear in the key signature is irrelevant, and arguably an anachronism stemming from the convention that signatures (not the keys themselves) don't/can't contain mixed accidentals. D minor is great example because the raised 6th of the melodic minor scale uses a natural accidental to move Bb up to B. So now we have flat, sharp and natural accidentals all within the one key.

 

[TroyK]

It's an interesting academic debate and I'm not formally an academic, so if you guys are, it might be better for you to debate this among yourselves, but I'm closer to @JonathanPDX on this one.

Our convention for key signatures and what we tend to refer to as diatonic harmony pertains to the major scale...the Sound of Music, Austrian/German/Ionian major scale and the modes and chords naturally derived from it. Not all music, specifically African American rooted jazz/blues/rock & roll music isn't primary or exclusively built around that paradigm.

Blues scale, melodic and harmonic minors, Lydian Chromatic Concept, diminished and altered scales and harmonies are different, sometimes complimentary systems. I personally don't regard those differences as part of classical diatonic harmonization: ergo - C# is not in the key of F because the minor 7th get raised with melodic or harmonic minor. Same way that I don't consider B natural to be in the key of F because Dorian can be opted for on a song composed in the key of D minor. E flat is not in the key of F, just because "Blues in F" uses an F7 as the tonic.

Again, I'm not an academic and one or both of you might be, so I don't want to dig in, but it's not how my brain has organized this information. I think what makes those notes cool to our ear is that they fall outside of that classical harmony.

 

[SteveCS]

Again, I'm not an academic and one or both of you might be, so I don't want to dig in, but it's not how my brain has organized this information. I think what makes those notes cool to our ear is that they fall outside of that classical harmony.

I am trained/educated in this stuff. There is no point getting entrenched over it, but I also won't apologise for trying to present good information. Classical harmony does not stop with the major key.

 

[TroyK]

I wouldn't want you to apologize and I am not classically trained, so I've got nothing on you. It's just not how I have it organized in my brain.

I do think that trying to explain something like the blues using classical theory and notation is awkward and it's not what it was originally conceived for. Also the originators of (I'll stick with) the blues were not classically trained, so using that system to explain their musical concept after the fact has always felt a bit labored.

I had a French teacher tell me once "When a French person says something in French, they don't mean something in English." That stuck with me.

Again, my less credentialed perspective.

 

[SteveCS]

I wouldn't want you to apologize and I am not classically trained, so I've got nothing on you. It's just not how I have it organized in my brain.

I do think that trying to explain something like the blues using classical theory and notation is awkward and it's not what it was originally conceived for. Also the originators of (I'll stick with) the blues were not classically trained, so using that system to explain their musical concept after the fact has always felt a bit labored.

I had a French teacher tell me once "When a French person says something in French, they don't mean something in English." That stuck with me.

Again, my less credentialed perspective.

That's a fair view, but I don't think blues is so far removed as all that. If say in a minor blues you play a V7 chord in the turnaround before going back to i (or im7), that V7 is made major by that leading tone or raised 7th in the key. In A minor, the naturally occurring v chord is Em7. Raise the 7th of the key from G to G# and suddenly it becomes the familiar E7 that we all recognise. It's not borrowed or altered or otherwise messed with - it is just a straight-up diatonic V chord. The exact same principle and mechanism appears in jazz also - it's all about the resolution back to the tonic and tonic chord (G# > A in this case), be that major or minor.

 

[TroyK]

... In A minor, the naturally occurring v chord is Em7. Raise the 7th of the key from G to G# and suddenly it becomes the familiar E7 that we all recognise. It's not borrowed or altered or otherwise messed with - it is just a straight-up diatonic V chord. The exact same principle and mechanism appears in jazz also - it's all about the resolution back to the tonic and tonic chord (G# > A in this case), be that major or minor.

Okay, take this as me trying to understand, because I don't have your background with it, but if you "...Raise the 7th of the key from G to G#..." you are altering it, right?

Sorry, if I'm being dense.

 

[SteveCS]

Okay, take this as me trying to understand, because I don't have your background with it, but if you "...Raise the 7th of the key from G to G#..." you are altering it, right?

Sorry, if I'm being dense.

Yes you are right and not being in the least bit dense The point is that those 'altered' notes are considered diatonic. In the major key there are 7 notes, so 7 diatonic triads and 7 7th chords. In the minor key there are 9 because the major and minor 6th and 7th are all included So you have 9 possible chord roots, which means 13 diatonic triads and 16 diatonic 7th chords:

 

[JonathanPDX]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that. The accidentals used to raise the 6th and 7th, and the notes created by them, are part of the minor key, I.e. they are diatonic. The fact that they don't appear in the key signature is irrelevant, and arguably an anachronism stemming from the convention that signatures (not the keys themselves) don't/can't contain mixed accidentals. D minor is great example because the raised 6th of the melodic minor scale uses a natural accidental to move Bb up to B. So now we have flat, sharp and natural accidentals all within the one key.

That's exactly my point, that's a scale, not a key.



Victor teaches these lessons in much more detail at his camps. There are rules for spelling a key, there are really no rules for what can be contained within a scale.

Keys cannot mix accidentals. Scales can. Songs can. Keys cannot. Keys cannot have double sharps or flats. Scales can. Keys must use all 7 letters. Scales don't have to, for example, whole tone or diminished.

For someone learning scales this stuff isn't as important, other than having basic terminology, but if he wants to learn how to read music and understand music theory on a deeper level then it's good to know the difference.

 

[SteveCS]

That's exactly my point, that's a scale, not a key.

No, it's 3 scales (natural, melodic and harmonic) that between them collect and organise the notes - all 9 of them - of a single coherent key. Equally and alternatively, the minor key includes all 9 of the notes from which the natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales are derived.
Of course that does present problems for the signature - how can you both the minor AND major 6ths and 7ths? You can't, and even if you could there is no point because the reader needs to know which to play at any point in time. The solution is easy - just use accidentals in the score, hence why we are where we are.

Victor's comments are misleading and incomplete because he forgets to mention the fact that those 3 scales between (natural, melodic and harmonic) them ARE the minor key. In fact he barely mentions the intricacies of the minor key.

 

[JonathanPDX]

No, it's 3 scales (natural, melodic and harmonic) that between them collect and organise the notes - all 9 of them - of a single coherent key. Equally and alternatively, the minor key includes all 9 of the notes from which the natural, melodic and harmonic minor scales are derived. Victor's comments are misleading and incomplete because he forgets to mention the fact that those 3 scales between (natural, melodic and harmonic) them ARE the minor key. In fact he barely mentions the intricacies of the minor key.

Because you cannot spell those keys using the rules that dictate what is and is not a key. KEY in this case specifically refers to what can be written on a music staff.

Show me how you can write the melodic or harmonic minor scales without breaking the following rules:
Use all 7 letters: ABCDEFG
None of those letters are used twice.
Either sharps or flats, no mixing of accidentals.
No double sharps or double flats.

If you cannot do that then what you describe is not technically a key. It may be a scale, but it's not a key.

 

[SteveCS]

Because you cannot spell those keys using the rules that dictate what is and is not a key. KEY in this case specifically refers to what can be written on a music staff.

Show me how you can write the melodic or harmonic minor scales without breaking the following rules:
Use all 7 letters: ABCDEFG
None of those letters are used twice.
Either sharps or flats, no mixing of accidentals.
No double sharps or double flats.

If you cannot do that then what you describe is not technically a key. It may be a scale, but it's not a key.

Like I said, we will have to agree to disagree on this. Those are not strict rules, they are conventions that are convenient within the confines of the major keys - they don't work for the minor keys where letter names ARE used twice (for the 6th and 7th degrees) and accidentals ARE necessarily mixed, Maybe it would help to move from thinking of key signatures less as DEFINING the key and more as an aid to IDENTIFICATION of the key.
Perhaps a few sources will help: