School me on certification

[Minimalist]

Insurance companies like appliances to have safety certifications.

It was always my understanding that this is the no 1 reason for certifications in the US. UL was legally not required but you are less likely to get insurance, you may get excluded from quotes etc. Never dealt with consumer products though and was always just in a support role, in other words I'm not an expert.

 

[agedhorse]

@agedhorse to your knowledge, is is accepted by UL to use brown insulated conductors for bonding? That was one of the funny things we ran into, a cUL stamped oudoor LED sign (like a big tv) that failed inspection because of brown leads in the terminal box that led to a discovery of brown being used throughout the sign. We had to have the brown replaced with green and have it re-certified by CSA before we passed. Not sure if it was a factory error or a specification, but it was cheaper to have it changed than get it replaced, the owner had purchased it from an unhelpful souce.

The equipment grounding conductor must be either solid green or green with a yellow stripe in the US, and only green with a yellow stripe in the EU.

I hear ya on the medical engineering / manufacturing.

For the first half of my audio career I took sabbaticals, from studios, and worked as a electronics /engineering tech. Just have a Associates in electronics. I worked for two medical companies. Plexus and SonoSite in Bothell WA. Plexus was engineering and new product introduction. Paperwork and audit hell. SonoSite was a portable ultrasound company and I did service / tech support. Not as bad paperwork but still the all the UL, CE and FDA stuff. Of course the internal audit stuff.

Get tired of that, then back to music studio grind.

FDA is an additional requirement for some medical equipment, but IIRC it's not necessary for the electronics side of things. It's UL/IEC 60601 for that part. The engineer that evaluates many of our products actually specializes in the medical certification side of UL and is very detail oriented. Sometimes I have to remind him that we are not building medical devices.

Correct me if I'm wrong but UL is not a legal requirement in the US. However, you'd be well advised to get a certification. UL, CSA, and Intertek are from my involvement with other products interchangeable.

It's not a legal requirement to place for sale, but it may be a requirement by the distributor or if being imported it may be a condition of import, just like exporting from the US to Canada generally requires compliance to cUL 62368 though if the product remains in-country the enforcement may not be all that consistent. There are about a dozen NRTL's or recognized bodies that can test and certify for safety. EMC is entirely different.

It was always my understanding that this is the no 1 reason for certifications in the US. UL was legally not required but you are less likely to get insurance, you may get excluded from quotes etc. Never dealt with consumer products though and was always just in a support role, in other words I'm not an expert.

This is true, you may not get insurance, distribution or in many stores.

 

[Minimalist]

FDA is an additional requirement for some medical equipment, but IIRC it's not necessary for the electronics side of things. It's UL/IEC 60601 for that part. The engineer that evaluates many of our products actually specializes in the medical certification side of UL and is very detail oriented. Sometimes I have to remind him that we are not building medical devices.

FDA handles more the effect the device has on the patient and not so much the safety of the operator. Think respirator. UL cares about the safety of the device, while FDA is worried about what the device does for/to the patient.

What a lot of people forget is, that UL is a private entity. I am dealing a lot with importing small machines, medical devices etc from overseas and UL is not relevant for import. Maybe 30-50% of the imported machines have UL certification. And I'm not talking cheap machines. My clients are typically in the top 5 in the ROW. Their biggest hurdle with UL is usually documentation, not the device itself. Eventually they do get the certificate, but most of them chose to work with Intertek. Again, not consumer products and typically niche products in a niche market.

 

[agedhorse]

An alternative to UL is to certify to the appropriate IEC regulations under CB Scheme but with US and Canadian national differences, which adds the necessary tests at 120V plus labeling and other specifics for North America. This may or may not apply to medical devices depending on the requirements for follow-up inspections.

Either way, it's a lot of work and cost.

 

[smoothbrain]

I have seen it a requirement that tools used or even carried in certain environments are certified.

 

[agedhorse]

I have seen it a requirement that tools used or even carried in certain environments are certified.

Correct.

 

[fdeck]

I have seen it a requirement that tools used or even carried in certain environments are certified.

Where my dad worked, the electrician's tool carrier was a job category. If you needed electrical work done, you had to call the electrician, and for the electrician to come out, he had to be accompanied by his tool carrier. There was also a plumber's tool carrier.

As odd as it seems, making sure that tools can be safely carried is something I'm conscious of, working in an industrial setting.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I have seen it a requirement that tools used or even carried in certain environments are certified.

Military and test equipment manuals specify what other tools and test equipment to use when servicing equipment. A contractor performing service must not only have the specified equipment but it must have current certificates of calibration. A lot of paperwork has to be submitted with bids to obtain service contracts.

One reason why certain old test equipment such as the Simpson 260 analog volt ohm meter is still in production.

260-8 & 260-8P Analog VOM - Simpson Electric

 

[Jim C]

I never use my Simpson 260 as a Fluke digital is so much more convenient for 95% of what I do.
$450+ for the 260 illustrates how important they are. Mine might be for sale!

 

[Short4since64]

Rules were different in the 70s, the only commercial product I was involved in was a disco-specific mixing board, analog, 100% discrete solid state. Small production run, under 1000. Did what it needed to do, very DJ-friendly, spilled beer resistant (including an internal scoop which would deflect a drink dumped in the headphone jack out of the case), mil-grade pots, all quality American components, circuit cards all pluggable and field replaceable. (see pics of a well-worn unit and one of the circuit cards - including a goof-correction, unit still works) Attorney advised if the unit had an AC cord expensive UL testing would be required, so the units shipped with red and black binding posts on the back for 24-60 VDC to use either an external UL listed 28V power supply or, as we did on our own night club installs, steal the power off one of the amplifiers. Built however quite a number of one-of "boutique" tube amp heads which, although wired to safety standards on the line side, 3w cord, fuse and internal backup fuse, were sold uncertified and cash.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I never use my Simpson 260 as a Fluke digital is so much more convenient for 95% of what I do.
$450+ for the 260 illustrates how important they are. Mine might be for sale!

The analog meter ballistics can be useful.

I bought mine for $20 at a hamfest. Deals can be found.

 

[Jim C]

Mine belonged to my Dad

 

[Eric Ryan]

Christ on a crutch, @agedhorse! Where do you find time to make world dominating amps/pedals/cabs, do product support, & answer crazy questions with such laser precision for us weirdo TBers?! Thank you!!

 

[agedhorse]

Christ on a crutch, @agedhorse! Where do you find time to make world dominating amps/pedals/cabs, do product support, & answer crazy questions with such laser precision for us weirdo TBers?! Thank you!!

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Regulatory engineering became about half of my job when our transformer vendor went out of business and we had to redesign AND certify about 40 transformers with their finished amps to the new safety standards (on the guitar side). The bass amps were designed to the new standards from the very beginning.

 

[hasbeen]

The basics are:

FCC compliance (Title 47, Part 15B) and proof of testing is required for the advertising or sale of products in the uS or Canada containing any switchmode power supply, switching amplifier (class D), any circuits clocked at over 9kHz including DSP and microcontrollers. IF the product contains any form of RF broadcast, including Bluetooth, analog or digital wireless links, it must also be tested to Part 15C which generally includes a different certification and licensing procedure. Canada generally follows the FCC guidelines under ISED. USA and Canada require conducted and radiated emissions testing. The product must comply before the FCC mark may be placed on the product.

Compliance for the EU is a little more involved, the requirements are generally similar (not identical) to the FCC conducted and radiated emissions testing but include additional tests for immunity, including Electrostatic Discharge, Radiated Immunity, Electrical Fast Transients, Conducted Immunity, Power Frequency Magnetic Fields and Voltage Dips + Interruptions. The product must comply before the CE mark may be placed on the product.

Safety in the US and EU are generally similar, though the AC mains voltages are obviously different. The standards are all integrated into a single IEC standard (62368) with distinctions for the US and Canada which are managed and referred to as UL and cUL 62368. The reason for this is that dielectric strength requirements and working voltage calculations are different due to the different mains voltage. These standards are hundreds of pages long, are very complex and costly to test to. Generally a couple of each product is damaged during the testing process. There are also national differences for different countries within the EU as well as for CENELEC countries that are signatories to IEC.

To place the UL or CE compliance mark on a product, the manufacturer must have the product tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, AND it must pass. A technical file must be maintained that includes all documentation of the product as well as copies of the test reports, certificates, critical components data, inspection reports, Engineering Change Orders, importer of record for each shipment, etc. When products are exported, it's normal for the customs office of the importing country to verify that the documents are in place and valid. Do products slip through, sure, but quality companies will follow the rules. The penalties for going around the rules IF YOU GET CAUGHT are substantial.

Here's an interesting story that looks at just EMC compliance for a pedal product (attached):

Great reply Andy. I think that FCC certification is also required for basically any device that simply has LED's too as they can be "unintentional transmitters". This would apply to "basic" effect pedals.

 

[Old Blastard]

I read this thread and immediately went downstairs to the practice room and patted my Genz Benz 500c combo on its little head and offered it a cup of coffee and and a danish. I understand about 2% of what was said here, but I got serious respect for that baby now.

Note: It wasn't hungry so I ate the danish and drank the coffee myself.

 

[agedhorse]

Great reply Andy. I think that FCC certification is also required for basically any device that simply has LED's too as they can be "unintentional transmitters". This would apply to "basic" effect pedals.

They certainly can be if they are dimmed or switched by PWM like some pedals do using microcontrollers.

Generally the noise from the LED diode junctions themselves are low enough to be ok as incidental radiators but the bigger issues are international and unintentional radiators. That said, proof that there isn't an issue may still technically be required by some agencies.

 

[agedhorse]

I read this thread and immediately went downstairs to the practice room and patted my Genz Benz 500c combo on its little head and offered it a cup of coffee and and a danish. I understand about 2% of what was said here, but I got serious respect for that baby now.

Note: It wasn't hungry so I ate the danish and drank the coffee myself.

That was the last product line that we developed, it's the sleeper of the bunch imo.

 

[Old Blastard]

That was the last product line that we developed, it's the sleeper of the bunch imo.

I've had it since about 2014 and it is awesome.

 

[gtirard]

Here's a great, practical example of a case where the lack of certification matters for us, users:

https://www.talkbass.com/threads/is...ass-d-power-amps.1635817/page-4#post-28203704