School me on certification

[gtirard]

@agedhorse often talks about certification, I must admit I'm pretty ignorant on the topic, maybe other members would like share or learn.

Is certification required for amps, cabs and pedals?

CE is the European certification, FC the American?

Thanks

 

[Redbrangus]

Clearly a question to be answered from the Horse's mouth. @agedhorse

 

[abarson]

UL = Underwriters Laboratory. Compliance to standards to assure electrical safety to users and property. Manufacturing standards for worker and environmental protection.
https://www.ul.com/services/certification

FCC = Federal Communications Commission. US authority. Validate that the device does not create radiant energy that would interfere with communications systems.
Link Removed

CE = conformité européenne" . Conforms to manufacturing standards of health, safety and environmental protection set by the EEA.
CE marking

From my understanding, the UL certification is the most stringent and comprehensive. In simple terms, what gets tested is a function of what power sources are used to feed the device.

 

[gtirard]

UL = Underwriters Laboratory. Compliance to standards to assure electrical safety to users and property. Manufacturing standards for worker and environmental protection.
https://www.ul.com/services/certification

FCC = Federal Communications Commission. US authority. Validate that the device does not create radiant energy that would interfere with communications systems.
Link Removed

CE = conformité européenne" . Conforms to manufacturing standards of health, safety and environmental protection set by the EEA.
CE marking

Thanks.

So UL and FCC certifications are required to sell an amp in the USA, and CE certification is required to sell an amp in Europe?

What about cabs and pedals?

 

[abarson]

Most cabs are passive, so wouldn't require UL or FCC, but would require CE.
How a pedal is powered would determine UL, while FCC and CE would still be required.

This is my understanding coming from a telco background and might not be entirely accurate.

 

[agedhorse]

The basics are:

FCC compliance (Title 47, Part 15B) and proof of testing is required for the advertising or sale of products in the uS or Canada containing any switchmode power supply, switching amplifier (class D), any circuits clocked at over 9kHz including DSP and microcontrollers. IF the product contains any form of RF broadcast, including Bluetooth, analog or digital wireless links, it must also be tested to Part 15C which generally includes a different certification and licensing procedure. Canada generally follows the FCC guidelines under ISED. USA and Canada require conducted and radiated emissions testing. The product must comply before the FCC mark may be placed on the product.

Compliance for the EU is a little more involved, the requirements are generally similar (not identical) to the FCC conducted and radiated emissions testing but include additional tests for immunity, including Electrostatic Discharge, Radiated Immunity, Electrical Fast Transients, Conducted Immunity, Power Frequency Magnetic Fields and Voltage Dips + Interruptions. The product must comply before the CE mark may be placed on the product.

Safety in the US and EU are generally similar, though the AC mains voltages are obviously different. The standards are all integrated into a single IEC standard (62368) with distinctions for the US and Canada which are managed and referred to as UL and cUL 62368. The reason for this is that dielectric strength requirements and working voltage calculations are different due to the different mains voltage. These standards are hundreds of pages long, are very complex and costly to test to. Generally a couple of each product is damaged during the testing process. There are also national differences for different countries within the EU as well as for CENELEC countries that are signatories to IEC.

To place the UL or CE compliance mark on a product, the manufacturer must have the product tested by a Nationally Recognized Testing Lab, AND it must pass. A technical file must be maintained that includes all documentation of the product as well as copies of the test reports, certificates, critical components data, inspection reports, Engineering Change Orders, importer of record for each shipment, etc. When products are exported, it's normal for the customs office of the importing country to verify that the documents are in place and valid. Do products slip through, sure, but quality companies will follow the rules. The penalties for going around the rules IF YOU GET CAUGHT are substantial.

Here's an interesting story that looks at just EMC compliance for a pedal product (attached):

 

[micguy]

FCC compliance (Title 47, Part 15B) and proof of testing is required for the advertising or sale of products in the uS These standards are hundreds of pages long, are very complex and costly to test to.

If you are ever having trouble getting to sleep, however, they can be invaluable. At leas when I read them, that was my usual response.

 

[logdrum]

How about ROHS - Restriction of Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment. That's an EU thing.

I was only involved in prototyping and R&D, but once the product was certified for sale, all engineers involved are checked many time to make sure they send the engineering samples back or proof that you destroyed them.

If you think that is a lot of paperwork, then you probably do not want to be involved in medical devices, even just monitors and no direct patient care. Even the software is vetted and you will be constantly reviewed.

 

[S-Bigbottom]

Basically a check off that an item will not burn down every house they are in.

 

[agedhorse]

If you are ever having trouble getting to sleep, however, they can be invaluable. At leas when I read them, that was my usual response.

Mine too.

How about ROHS - Restriction of Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment. That's an EU thing.

I was only involved in prototyping and R&D, but once the product was certified for sale, all engineers involved are checked many time to make sure they send the engineering samples back or proof that you destroyed them.

If you think that is a lot of paperwork, then you probably do not want to be involved in medical devices, even just monitors and no direct patient care. Even the software is vetted and you will be constantly reviewed.

Correct, I just addressed EMC and safety regulations.

 

[grubdumpling]

We also have CSA in Canada, from what I understand the ULc standards meet or exceed the requirements of the CSA standards. I have also heard it said that since our Electrical Code states specifically that products must bear the CSA logo, and that regardless of how stringent the ULc standards may be, ULc is not legally a substitute for a CSA approval.

I have had local inspectors enforce this distinction, and it's not worth the battle.

edit: for clarity, I am speaking of installed/hardwired devices, not cord connected stuff.

 

[Killing Floor]

How about ROHS - Restriction of Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment. That's an EU thing.

I was only involved in prototyping and R&D, but once the product was certified for sale, all engineers involved are checked many time to make sure they send the engineering samples back or proof that you destroyed them.

If you think that is a lot of paperwork, then you probably do not want to be involved in medical devices, even just monitors and no direct patient care. Even the software is vetted and you will be constantly reviewed.

In my industry RoHS falls under our CE guidelines. In the states it's voluntary but can have ancillary marketing benefits.

 

[fdeck]

>>> If your instrument does not obtain power from a wall outlet's AC power lines, either directly or through an AC Adapter/battery eliminator and it does not generate or use any frequencies above 1.705 MHz, then the product may be exempt.

This is why I still have a bag of 1 MHz ceramic resonators, and battery connectors, left over from my first product, discontinued long ago.

The 1 MHz clock rate was sufficient to support communicating with the IR port on a Palm Pilot.

 

[agedhorse]

We also have CSA in Canada, from what I understand the ULc standards meet or exceed the requirements of the CSA standards. I have also heard it said that since our Electrical Code states specifically that products must bear the CSA logo, and that regardless of how stringent the ULc standards may be, ULc is not legally a substitute for a CSA approval.

I have had local inspectors enforce this distinction, and it's not worth the battle.

edit: for clarity, I am speaking of installed/hardwired devices, not cord connected stuff.

cUL and CSA are both certifications to cUL 62368. The NRTL's UL and CSA have a mutual acceptance agreement and the standard is officially UL/cUL 62368, the differences between the countries are minor. For example the UL standard is based on 120V/20A branch circuit OCP and the CSA standard is based on 15A OCP, therefore 20A is accepted for both. The primary differences are in the need for French labeling, safety sheets and owner's manuals.

In my industry RoHS falls under our CE guidelines. In the states it's voluntary but can have ancillary marketing benefits.

In California, we have similar requirements, therefore most domestic designs focus on RoHS and Reach requirements plus the specific labeling for California.

 

[logdrum]

In my industry RoHS falls under our CE guidelines. In the states it's voluntary but can have ancillary marketing benefits.

Yeah and usually it's stamped on the PCB not on the chassis.

Again -- I have never been involved with the process just know it is a lot of paperwork and technical testing. We are just told that using or powering up non certified prototypes after the certification is a big no, no - the kind that could get you fired.

 

[grubdumpling]

@agedhorse to your knowledge, is is accepted by UL to use brown insulated conductors for bonding? That was one of the funny things we ran into, a cUL stamped oudoor LED sign (like a big tv) that failed inspection because of brown leads in the terminal box that led to a discovery of brown being used throughout the sign. We had to have the brown replaced with green and have it re-certified by CSA before we passed. Not sure if it was a factory error or a specification, but it was cheaper to have it changed than get it replaced, the owner had purchased it from an unhelpful souce.

 

[Killing Floor]

cUL and CSA are both certifications to cUL 62368. The NRTL's UL and CSA have a mutual acceptance agreement and the standard is officially UL/cUL 62368, the differences between the countries are minor. For example the UL standard is based on 120V/20A branch circuit OCP and the CSA standard is based on 15A OCP, therefore 20A is accepted for both. The primary differences are in the need for French labeling, safety sheets and owner's manuals.


In California, we have similar requirements, therefore most domestic designs focus on RoHS and Reach requirements plus the specific labeling for California.

My employer is Dutch and we work globally so everything is designed for all applicable certs unless it's a niche market item. To me that makes sense so your export transformations are minimal. It's a lot to keep up with. Glad I no longer have to interact with NRTLs.

 

[Deleted member 394512]

How about ROHS - Restriction of Hazardous Substances in Electrical and Electronic Equipment. That's an EU thing.

I was only involved in prototyping and R&D, but once the product was certified for sale, all engineers involved are checked many time to make sure they send the engineering samples back or proof that you destroyed them.

If you think that is a lot of paperwork, then you probably do not want to be involved in medical devices, even just monitors and no direct patient care. Even the software is vetted and you will be constantly reviewed.

I hear ya on the medical engineering / manufacturing.

For the first half of my audio career I took sabbaticals, from studios, and worked as a electronics /engineering tech. Just have a Associates in electronics. I worked for two medical companies. Plexus and SonoSite in Bothell WA. Plexus was engineering and new product introduction. Paperwork and audit hell. SonoSite was a portable ultrasound company and I did service / tech support. Not as bad paperwork but still the all the UL, CE and FDA stuff. Of course the internal audit stuff.

Get tired of that, then back to music studio grind.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Insurance companies like appliances to have safety certifications.

 

[Minimalist]

cUL and CSA are both certifications to cUL 62368. The NRTL's UL and CSA have a mutual acceptance agreement and the standard is officially UL/cUL 62368, the differences between the countries are minor. For example the UL standard is based on 120V/20A branch circuit OCP and the CSA standard is based on 15A OCP, therefore 20A is accepted for both. The primary differences are in the need for French labeling, safety sheets and owner's manuals.


In California, we have similar requirements, therefore most domestic designs focus on RoHS and Reach requirements plus the specific labeling for California.

Correct me if I'm wrong but UL is not a legal requirement in the US. However, you'd be well advised to get a certification. UL, CSA, and Intertek are from my involvement with other products interchangeable.