Schroeder 1210L vs. 2 Acme Low B2

[dave_bass5]

IF you want a clean, transparent cab, go get an Epifani, Accugroove, or Acme. If you want a cab that will make you smile playing with a band....Schroeder.

Thats exactly how i feel.
I had a UL212 for just over a year and did many gigs with it with one of my bands but i use a 1201R with my other band, almost same set up/same type of gigs and always worried the UL212 wasn't cutting through enough. No worries at all with the 1210R.
It is coloured and when standing close to it its not the best tone but out front it always seemed to sound warmer and rounder.
I use MB heads for both bands and we have played the same venues and i always seemed to have the master a lot lower with the 1210R.
Got rid of the UL212 and replaced it with a 1212L and even though they are both 2x12 cabs there is a world of difference.

 

[dcr]

Two Acmes would actually be louder with your MarkBass than one is. Not hugely louder, perhaps, but still louder.

BTW, how do you like the tone with the MarkBass?

Oh yeah, I know that a pair would be louder....but I just don't think that the GK would have enough power to sufficiently drive the pair. Not knocking the GK, of course. Rather, it's more of a comment towards the well-known and notorious power-hungry Acmes. Like it says on the Acme site: High power handling. 350W RMS is a good starting point due to the relatively low efficiency of the cabinet. 500W RMS is ideal. The more power, the better the sound. (Within reason - It's only a 2x10"!) With (2) 8-ohm Acmes, the GK would put out a max of 700W, so each cab would get 350W max each. That leaves no headroom, the way I see it. For rock, slap, or something that's loud and dynamic, that's too close to the edge for me. I'd rather protect both my head and cabs and ensure that I don't generate some clipping and blow something up.

I'm driving my 4-ohm Acme B2 with the MarkBass, and it'll eat up every bit of the TA501's output. Last gig I did -- albeit the gig was outside with poor PA support -- I wasn't loud enough and I could almost reach back and touch my rig from where I was standing on the tight stage. Better safe than sorry and get: a.) a more efficient cabinet, or b.) a bigger head. That being said, I like the Acme with the MarkBass. The above-mentioned gig was a special case and any other time for rehearsals and small gigs inside, it's been a fine combo. But emphasis on smaller. On the outside gig I talked about, I also brought the Schroeder to do an A/B shootout. Didn't get a chance to use it as we got rained out between set 1 & 2. I am using the MarkBass stacked with my Acme and an SWR BigFoot 2x12 in my practice room. Both are 4-ohm cabinets. Even at practice levels, the SWR is considerably louder than the Acme. Can't imagine that the Schroeder wouldn't be the same.


dcr

 

[alexclaber]

With (2) 8-ohm Acmes, the GK would put out a max of 700W, so each cab would get 350W max each. That leaves no headroom, the way I see it.

Headroom is about maximum system output vs required output, not amp vs cab power.

Two B2s with 200W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Four B2s with 100W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Eight B2s with 50W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W.

The more speakers, the easier it gets for the amp, due to mutual coupling increasing the radiation impedance of the speakers which thus increases their efficiency.

Alex

 

[KJung]

Headroom is about maximum system output vs required output, not amp vs cab power.

Two B2s with 200W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Four B2s with 100W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Eight B2s with 50W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W.

The more speakers, the easier it gets for the amp, due to mutual coupling increasing the radiation impedance of the speakers which thus increases their efficiency.

Alex

Hey Alex. This is more of a question than a comment, but I assume your example above assumes no power compression in the single cab but high wattage situation.

 

[dcr]

Headroom is about maximum system output vs required output, not amp vs cab power.

Two B2s with 200W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Four B2s with 100W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W. Eight B2s with 50W into them will be as loud as one B2 with 400W.

The more speakers, the easier it gets for the amp, due to mutual coupling increasing the radiation impedance of the speakers which thus increases their efficiency.

Alex

Okay, but where are you gonna find eight B2s that you can combine to create the 4-ohm minimum load that the GK will take? Best you can do is (2) 8-ohm cabs.

So for the 700W at 4 ohms on the GK, you're back to (2) 8-ohm cabs with a max of 350W each. Andy clearly lists that 350W is a minimum "starting point" and 500W is much better. Given the horror stories of damage caused by under-powering Acme cabs, I'm just not about to take that chance.

And if you push the rig hard and your required output approachs maximum system output, where you gonna go?



dcr

 

[wilsonn]

I'm driving a 1212 with a Crown that puts out 1400 watts bridged at 4 ohms. I never turn it past half way, and my band could only be described as very loud. The Schroeder is very efficient and can handle everything I throw at it. The Low B is a distinct note, not an indistinct thump. If I had it to do over, I'd still buy that 1212, because for the price there's nothing that delivers like it.
Neal

 

[KJung]

Given the horror stories of damage caused by under-powering Acme cabs, I'm just not about to take that chance.



dcr

The horror stories (creased cones, etc.) have NOTHING to do with underpowering, and everything to do with 'overpowering'. You cannot 'underpower' a cab (although I guess you could blow the tweeter protection circuit by running a low powered amp too hard into distortion.

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Oh yeah, I know that a pair would be louder....but I just don't think that the GK would have enough power to sufficiently drive the pair.

But you see, what I'm saying is that these two statements are contradictory. Because it would be louder, it would actually be better to use two B-2s (or a B-4) with a G-K, or any head of that size, than it would be to use one B-2. You'd get more volume for a given amp output, not less. The idea of "sufficiently driving" the speakers doesn't really mean much in this setting. It's not as if they won't work right if you give them less power. They don't need more power to sound good. The only need involved is on the part of the user, with respect to volume. You can't really say that any given amount of power is or is not enough for a given set of speakers. All you can say is whether it's enough for the specific task you're trying to do.

 

[KJung]

But you see, what I'm saying is that these two statements are contradictory. Because it would be louder, it would actually be better to use two B-2s (or a B-4) with a G-K, or any head of that size, than it would be to use one B-2. You'd get more volume for a given amp output, not less. The idea of "sufficiently driving" the speakers doesn't really mean much in this setting. It's not as if they won't work right if you give them less power. They don't need more power to sound good. The only need involved is on the part of the user, with respect to volume. You can't really say that any given amount of power is or is not enough for a given set of speakers. All you can say is whether it's enough for the specific task you're trying to do.

+1

 

[Richard Lindsey]

Given the horror stories of damage caused by under-powering Acme cabs, I'm just not about to take that chance.

And if you push the rig hard and your required output approachs maximum system output, where you gonna go?



dcr

No speaker damage has ever been caused by "underpowering" a cab. Check out posts by billfitzaurice, BobLee and others on this.

Andy doesn't mean the cabs need 350 W to work right, or that using less than 350 W poses any inherent danger. He means that in his judgment, many, perhaps most (but by no means all), users will want 350 W or more to get the volume they might require in their playing situation. If you're using a 200 W and it isn't sufficient for your volume needs (say, if you're playing classic rock covers in a club and only the vocals are miked), you'll sound bad, because you will be forced to make the amp strain. In such a situation, a bigger amp will relieve the strain, and you'll sound better, but the cab won't have changed how it behaves or anything; it's just that the amp is working less hard. Andy also cites examples of people using as little as 100 W and being perfectly happy if their volume needs are modest. And one of Andy's pet peeves is actually people overpowering his cabs. (This doesn't mean using a bigger amp per se, it means actually sending too much power to the cab.)

 

[Gintaras]

I saw a thread a few days ago on the 3rd generation of 1212L's with Celestion Neo's. There seems to have been an improvement in lowend and tone. I am looking forward to hearing more about these. Have been wanting a 1212L for a while and looking forward to hearing more about it. I presently have a 1010R.

Hopefully one of the new 1212L owners will jump in on this post.

 

[dcr]

But you see, what I'm saying is that these two statements are contradictory. Because it would be louder, it would actually be better to use two B-2s (or a B-4) with a G-K, or any head of that size, than it would be to use one B-2. You'd get more volume for a given amp output, not less. The idea of "sufficiently driving" the speakers doesn't really mean much in this setting. It's not as if they won't work right if you give them less power. They don't need more power to sound good. The only need involved is on the part of the user, with respect to volume. You can't really say that any given amount of power is or is not enough for a given set of speakers. All you can say is whether it's enough for the specific task you're trying to do.

Okay, fair enough, I'll acquiesce. This is exactly why I use a single Acme with a mono 500W amp for small gigs and a pair of Schroders with 900W/ch stereo for big gigs. Those are the jobs I bought them for.

And like I said in my first post...I have, use, and love both Acme cabs and Schroeder cabs. With his GK1001RB, I'd pick the Schroder cab hands-down. It's more efficient, lighter than the pair of Acmes, and will certainly cut thru the mix as well or better.




dcr

 

[alexclaber]

Okay, but where are you gonna find eight B2s that you can combine to create the 4-ohm minimum load that the GK will take? Best you can do is (2) 8-ohm cabs.

So for the 700W at 4 ohms on the GK, you're back to (2) 8-ohm cabs with a max of 350W each. Andy clearly lists that 350W is a minimum "starting point" and 500W is much better. Given the horror stories of damage caused by under-powering Acme cabs, I'm just not about to take that chance.

And if you push the rig hard and your required output approachs maximum system output, where you gonna go?

Series/Parallel wiring will work fine with large numbers of matching cabs.

The minimum power recommendations on the Acme site are for single cabs in typical situations. I have never ever heard of an Acme cab being damaged by underpowering, only ever overpowering.

I sold my Acmes a few months ago. They are now being used with a 100W valve amp driving them and the new owner loves the tone and volume. But 100W into a pair of B2s?!! Surely that will mean the end of the world!!!!!!

I have to say this is the strangest thread - the only thing similar about the two cabs is their dimensions! Everything else is completely polar.

Alex

 

[Richard Lindsey]

And like I said in my first post...I have, use, and love both Acme cabs and Schroeder cabs. With his GK1001RB, I'd pick the Schroder cab hands-down. It's more efficient, lighter than the pair of Acmes, and will certainly cut thru the mix as well or better.




dcr

The Schro might well be the better choice for the OP. I think you're quite right that he'd probably get better "cut" that way.

 

[dcr]

The horror stories (creased cones, etc.) have NOTHING to do with underpowering, and everything to do with 'overpowering'. You cannot 'underpower' a cab (although I guess you could blow the tweeter protection circuit by running a low powered amp too hard into distortion.

I suspect you could blow more than the tweeter circuit. Speakers don't much care for high-power distortion either.

This sort of scenario / damage is what I was referrring to when I mentioned "under-powering", especially given the inherent inefficiency of the Acme cabs. I should have had my semantics down better. Mea culpa!



dcr

 

[alexclaber]

I suspect you could blow more than the tweeter circuit. Speakers don't much care for high-power distortion either.

You could blow the bulb that protects the high frequency components. You couldn't blow the woofers because their inductance prevents much current flow at high frequencies.

Alex

 

[BassmanPaul]

I cannot comment about the Schroders. I have never even seen one let alone played one. All I can say is that when I got my first B2 I was blown away by how it sounded with a Yamaha B100 100W SS amp. I now own four but only ever use two for gigging. I give each one 350W from a Carvin DCM1000 running in parallel. I have never lacked for volume at any gig I've played - indoor or outdoor. Folks say that the Acmes are inefficient. I have never found them so. When given their rated power they are as loud as I could ever need. Bottom line for me was once I found the Acmes I stopped looking at any other brand.

Paul

 

[crdasilva]

Hy guys, due to acme hungry I decided to change the options...

I would like to know the opinion of you on a new combination with my GK 1001 RB:
Schroeder 1210L or Epifani UL2-310 or Bergantino AE210...

What is the best choice in your opnion???....

Thanks...

 

[Drake]

split the difference and go with eden 210xst ... low end response.. efficient... can get loud.. has enough mids.

maybe I'm just nuts, but it seems like almost a midpoint between the acme and the schroeder.. like an average or combination of the 2.

 

[jokerjkny]

one of the weirder head to heads, no?