Sealed subs like bag end infra

[kringle77]

Ive done alot of reading on bag end infra subs and similar. It looks like they are basically using heavy low end eq boosts and limiting to get real low end output from a sealed sub. So, anyone with a dsp equiped amp should be able to do this with their own diy sealed subwoofer, right? Am I missing something?

 

[Wasnex]

Ive done alot of reading on bag end infra subs and similar. It looks like they are basically using heavy low end eq boosts and limiting to get real low end output from a sealed sub. So, anyone with a dsp equiped amp should be able to do this with their own diy sealed subwoofer, right? Am I missing something?

That is basically what is going on. I have used them and they sound nice, but they do not play low and loud.

I spec'ed a system with four of the compact S18 subs and the ELF 1 Dual Integrator. I chose Bag End due the small size and fidelity of the subs. I had been tasked to stuff a 5-piece rock band into a C-21 (which is a 7-passenger corporate jet flown by the Air Force).

There used to be a White Paper available that went into great detail on the ELF 1. The low end response was controlled by a parameter called Masking which was basically a limiter with a frequency dependent threshold. Basically as the SPL went up the low frequency extension was limited at a higher frequency. I believe the subs were rated for 400W RMS and started with a sensitivity rating around 96dB at the top of their pass band. Below 80hz the efficiency drops at a rate of 12dB per octave, so at 40hz the sensitivity was ~84dB.

I have a pair of really crappy subs with Electro Voice EVM-18B drivers. The cabinets are too small and ported at about 50Hz. I am pretty sure they would stomp the four Bag Ends from 50Hz up as as far as output, but the Bag Ends sounded better for most program material. Some program material with deep bass revealed the action of the Masking, but this was not a problem for the repertoire we played.

 

[kringle77]

That is basically what is going on. I have used them and they sound nice, but they do not play low and loud.

I spec'ed a system with four of the compact S18 subs and the ELF 1 Dual Integrator. I chose Bag End due the small size and fidelity of the subs. I had been tasked to stuff a 5-piece rock band into a C-21 (which is a 7-passenger corporate jet flown by the Air Force).

There used to be a White Paper available that went into great detail on the ELF 1. The low end response was controlled by a parameter called Masking which was basically a limiter with a frequency dependent threshold. Basically as the SPL went up the low frequency extension was limited at a higher frequency. I believe the subs were rated for 400W RMS and started with a sensitivity rating around 96dB at the top of their pass band. Below 80hz the efficiency drops at a rate of 12dB per octave, so at 40hz the sensitivity was ~84dB.

I have a pair of really crappy subs with Electro Voice EVM-18B drivers. The cabinets are too small and ported at about 50Hz. I am pretty sure they would stomp the four Bag Ends from 50Hz up as as far as output, but the Bag Ends sounded better for most program material. Some program material with deep bass revealed the action of the Masking, but this was not a problem for the repertoire we played.

Wasnex, that may be the first time Ive ever asked a question on talkbass and got exactly the information I wanted. Thank you! Im looking for smaller subs that cover 40hz to 160hz, crossed over to a column array of 3" faital drivers. It looks like ported is still the practical way to go.

Im thinking about building a ported 2x12 housing either a pair of eminence definimax 4012ulf-8 drivers, or kappalite 3012lf drivers, either pair in a 6cuft box. Probably tey to find a plate amp with dsp. I like multiple woofers in a cab as, they couple nicely and get that punch to the chest feel. Any opinions?

 

[Wasnex]

Wasnex, that may be the first time Ive ever asked a question on talkbass and got exactly the information I wanted. Thank you! Im looking for smaller subs that cover 40hz to 160hz, crossed over to a column array of 3" faital drivers. It looks like ported is still the practical way to go.

Im thinking about building a ported 2x12 housing either a pair of eminence definimax 4012ulf-8 drivers, or kappalite 3012lf drivers, either pair in a 6cuft box. Probably tey to find a plate amp with dsp. I like multiple woofers in a cab as, they couple nicely and get that punch to the chest feel. Any opinions?

I am not really a tuning guru, maybe @Rick James could point you in the right direction.

Parts Express usually links tunings with Eminence drivers. I attached the tunings for the 4012ULF and 3012LF.

 

[kringle77]

Thanks. Yeah I looked at those. I have eminence cab software and have built many cabs. I was just putting it out there ti see if anyone had actually used these two drivers in real life. I find that two drivers that appwar similar in the software can perform differently at a gig. Ive never had a neo driver have the low punch that a ceramic one does. I owned 4 subs loaded with kappalite 3015lf drivers and, they went low but, had a hollow, empty sound. The cheap yamaha club woofers with ceramic were much better. I built a few bass cabs with the 3012lf and they were pretty good but, weren't designed to be subs.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks. Yeah I looked at those. I have eminence cab software and have built many cabs. I was just putting it out there ti see if anyone had actually used these two drivers in real life. I find that two drivers that appwar similar in the software can perform differently at a gig. Ive never had a neo driver have the low punch that a ceramic one does. I owned 4 subs loaded with kappalite 3015lf drivers and, they went low but, had a hollow, empty sound. The cheap yamaha club woofers with ceramic were much better. I built a few bass cabs with the 3012lf and they were pretty good but, weren't designed to be subs.

Probably a lot has to do with which tuning is chosen and the type of sound you want. I think the Yamaha's are probably tuned more for punch than fidelity and low end extension. The specs say the SW115V's frequency response is 35-2kHz, but this is the -10dB values. The low end starts dropping pretty fast around 70Hz...about 7dB from 70-40Hz. Below 40Hz I believe it drops at 12dB/octave. F3 appears to be around 60Hz.

I am considering buying some JBL VR918S cabs. These have NEO drivers and are pretty well respected for small smalls. The consensus is they require a lot of power to sound their best.

 

[Rick James]

Ive done alot of reading on bag end infra subs and similar. It looks like they are basically using heavy low end eq boosts and limiting to get real low end output from a sealed sub. So, anyone with a dsp equiped amp should be able to do this with their own diy sealed subwoofer, right? Am I missing something?

What they do is called a Linkwitz Transform. It can get very low response from a small sealed cab, but at a cost. It boosts the low end with EQ. Every 6dB of EQ doubles the driver excursion and quadruples the power, so you can run out of both xmax and power really quick.

 

[kringle77]

Thanks very much for the info guys. I want to stick with a column array system and portable, punchy subs. Im looking very hard at a pair of pztronics vla2-x columns. Aluminum chasis, 20 3" drivers in each, 1000w power section. I might try running those with 4 of the ev elx200-12sp subs.

 

[4Mal]

JTR Captivator 212 ? Jeff specs his stuff out very exactly by reputation. He is held in high regard over At prosound.org

 

[NapaSmith]

I've used BE ELF subs years ago from double 10's to a Quartz and agree with Wasnex about how they perform. Then I stopped using them for some time because being on larger stages with big PA's and IEM's it sort of lost the point. I was being blasted by 10 Meyer double 18" subs and didn't need them. Recently I've been in some bands in smaller to medium places without that fantastic house PA Sub support where I again would benefit from low end reinforcement and I got a new BE ELF Neptune single 18" cab that was delivered just yesterday. I really like the the built-in amp and built-in ELF controller. Simple Plug & play.

I had been using an Aguilar TH 700 and two SL 112's which sounded very good but I knew lacked what a "professional" sub does. In my first gig, a Tom Petty cover band, I used the sub with the TH700 (and just turned the bass knob all the way down) and one of the SL's on top. Everyone was shocked at the sound. They'd never heard BE ELF's before. For me - it emulated what great PA subs (Not a cheapo) would do in those low octaves. Just beautiful support.

My opinion is the BE ELF's perform absolutely amazing at an unbeatable price point when you compare them against other high-end subs. I do agree with Wasnex that, for example, a $2,200 Single BE ELF 18" does not compete with a $7,500 Meyer Single 18" sub in the area of raw power. I'd also point out that if you actually pushed the Meyer sub to its capacity you'd be run out of most (smaller) venues because it would be too much so its kind of waste. The BE ELF does reproduce the low octaves in a way the you would not hear unless you had a very expensive massive sub. That's its magic. I think the single 18" is perfect if you're looking to bring your game up while still blending into the "this is still a bass amp" space.

Finally - the club really like it too. Funny thing about that really low end is it doesn't compete with other instruments. There is something about how those low fundamentals people associate with "quality."

Oh - and yes I've used single 18" and other "prosumer" subs and they sound NOTHING like the BE. They sound like prosumer.

 

[kringle77]

Thanks for for the detailed information. Im still waffling on what direction to go in. It needs to be portable though. Several months of the year here in the upper north east are not fun times to move equipment.

 

[NapaSmith]

Thanks for for the detailed information. Im still waffling on what direction to go in. It needs to be portable though. Several months of the year here in the upper north east are not fun times to move equipment.

I should update that the double 10's and 12's are also nice but not nearly as loud as the 18"

 

[kringle77]

A pair of double 12's would probable work for the small to medium clubs my band plays.

 

[NapaSmith]

A pair of double 12's would probable work for the small to medium clubs my band plays.

And I'm assuming you're thinking of self-powered with the ELF integrator? That's the way to go. Hey come to Napa and you can try out my cabinet any time and taste wine in the same day.

You mean one double 12? I started off planning on that but then considering my rock band stuff went with the 18" The only problem with getting two double 12 cabs is the price. Essentially two double 12's = 1 18". Jim from BE is a really great guy and will explain it to you if you're interested. Mostly its rooted in square footage of the cabinet although I have no clear idea of exactly why that is.

I used to use a double 10" in "not too loud environments" and even in large 2500 seat places where the volume was relatively low - like mid to high 80dB's it was a great support everyone noticed. Never got a complaint from a sound guy. Unless you're in a place with really high-end subs you'll be the only one "down there" and everyone will appreciate it.

 

[kringle77]

Yes, a pair of powered and processed double 12's is what I would like but, the price is quite steep. I know that speaker size shouldnt have any effect on performace but, I do tend to prefer mutiple smaller drivers grouped together for subs. Both for performance and portability. Also, I get what you are saying about real subs that "get beneath everything else, and dont get in the way".

 

[kringle77]

I plan to go totally di in the near future and would like to mention that I prefer to hi pass my bass at around 100hz and let the kick have most of the sub. Im definitely more growly rock and not hip hop, bass guitar wise.

 

[NapaSmith]

I plan to go totally di in the near future and would like to mention that I prefer to hi pass my bass at around 100hz and let the kick have most of the sub. Im definitely more growly rock and not hip hop, bass guitar wise.

What??? HP at 100? You have no need for a BE subs then. They will be sleeping all night. I mean literally. The published specs are: "Frequency Response: 8 Hz to 95 Hz ±3 dB"

Perhaps you mean in the "house" vs. stage? HP at 100 threw me for a loop when we're talking about subs....

I didn't mean to imply the extended octaves should be overpowering - just balanced. From what I hear, modern live audio always includes that low resolution because the state of the art has improved. IMHO well balanced extended low bass frequency is marvelous to create energy and dynamics. I agree with you that hip hop and lots of alt rock does makes the low freq. a "thing" that is unique to those genres. I play mostly in a Petty Tribute band and Neil Diamond tribute band and both love the extraordinary resolution of the sound because it sounds more like those bands did in concert where I assure you the bass guitar had tremendous content below 100 hz.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't know if you have seen it, but I have attached what I described as a White Paper on the ELF 1 processor.

It gets quite a bit into the theory and philosophy of how these subs work. The ELF 1 had a lot more user selectable parameters, but I believe the current INFRA-MXB processor has pretty much the same functions, it is just not as adjustable, and the sub output is not stereo.

Ultimately I think the Bag Ends were good sounding subs, but I did not find the bass as tight and HiFi as the attached paper would suggest. I would say their best musical quality is they stay out of the way and do not color the sound as long as you respect their SPL limits. If you push them hard, they don't complain or distort, but the extreme low end drops away due to the masking function. FYI, the term used in the attached paper is "Concealment," rather than masking. Sorry for any confusion this causes.

I think the S18C (compacts) were a good buy for the system I built, due primarily to their small size. FYI The S18C compacts were special order. Same height and width as the S18C, but approximately half the depth. I have also heard live music on the standard D18s and auditioned S10 and S12s at Musik Messe.

The inheritors of the system liked it so much that they replaced it with new Bag Ends when the original system was used up. But eventually the replacement system was superseded by a pair of JBL VRX915Ss and four VRX932s, which IMHO were louder and sounded better. By this time, the original reason for buying the Bag Ends had long since passed, so ultra compact subs were no longer a priority.

FYI, I believe the ELF terminology was abandoned due to trademark infringement or something similar. I was a bit surprised with the Trace Elliot ELF came out.

 

[kringle77]

This thread has brought up some really great info. Thanks alot for that guys. Sometimes threads get very side tracked.

 

[NapaSmith]

Pretty close in size to the Aggie SL 112... Surprisingly the same depth.