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Double Bass Section aesthetics

Andy Mopley

Andy Mopley

Sep 24, 2011
1,335
318
#1
Hi all

I understand that it makes sense for sections to bow together, and visually it makes sense to me. However, drilling a little further..is every player in the (double bass section) also expected to play - unless otherwise intended because of how the parts are written - essentially in the same (Simandl) position as the principal? Or is there latitude ? I am thinking where individual preference (in fingering or position) can be at odd with what the principal (in the section) opts to play, for the same number of bars?

Regards to all
 
#3
What does it say about a leader if their expectation is to be surrounded by people who only ever do exactly what they do no matter what the outcome?


It seems to me that section leaders who produce a skilled and honest representation of the best service they can deliver in any given musical situation have the best chance of being surrounded by people who sense that intention and try to get involved with it however they’re individually able.


This assumes a level of competence and interest in a shared goal held by everyone - to be able to not only manage oneself, but also that the way to do this involves paying attention to any and all relevant information coming from any source within sight or earshot. Good if this can be modelled by a section leader who is as highly skilled as they are interested in continuing to learn from anything and everyone around them.


It seems reasonable that a section leader might make suggestions regarding the manner in which they would like certain aspects of playing to be managed. There is such a thing as micro management, though. Knowing when that line is crossed is a matter of reading the room and the people in it.
 
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#5
I've had a few occurrences of it being dictated; in recent memory, there is a moment in the slow movement of Mahler 6 where half the section plays. It is quiet, exposed, and legato. This is a situation where the principal asked us to play it all on the D string because of its aesthetic, as opposed to having the string crossing. I thought it was a legitimate reason and a legitimate request
63B52566-2553-4688-920D-2F7214E2B859.jpeg
 
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#6
Andy Mopley said:
is every player in the (double bass section) also expected to play...essentially in the same (Simandl) position as the principal? Or is there latitude ? I am thinking where individual preference (in fingering or position) can be at odd with what the principal (in the section) opts to play, for the same number of bars?
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Generally, no. Aside from some very specific situations, that's not really done at the professional level. Every player has different preferences, and every bass also responds differently. As long as things are in tune and blending nicely, there would never be a reason to nitpick over fingerings.
 
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#8
Not sure about the nose, but a kid subbing with us once used his chin in those crazy fast runs in the last movement of Beethoven 9. Couldn’t argue with his “fingering” because he played it cleaner than I could.

Original question, uniform bowing almost always, fingerings almost never though we will talk about them.

I had a teacher who used to sub regularly with St. Louis. He said their policy was you give it your best effort to conform but come performance time if the principals bowing was tripping you up, do whatever you need to do to get the passage sounding right.

There’s a larger issue of uniformity across the entire string section, or at the very least with the cellos. Some conductors will question when we’re using more bows. A good principal will constructively deal with that and not automatically cave.

Incidentally, it’s not all about aesthetics. It’s as much if not more about uniformity of expression. But that said, there’s almost always more than one way to get a particular sound.
 
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#9
On the subject of blend which a couple of posters have mentioned; my teacher has instructed me to do two things whenever possible. Always favor long strings / lower positions and try not to play an open string on a down beat.
 
#10
I was always told that you had to match bowings and the conductor and principle could dictate your bowings, but that conductors and principles were overstepping if they dictate fingerings. That said, some suggestions just make too much musical sense to really argue with or get indignant about, like the Mahler passage cited above.
 
#11
Choice of fingerings depends so much on all the factors that make up context, such as speed, warmth of tone, clarity of articulation, need for vibrato, and importance to be heard vs just accompanying others, etc, etc. There are usually at least two good reliable fingerings for the same passage to work on and some simple "rules" or guidelines that we learn as students such as being wary of open G and A flat because of their harsher tone than the same notes on the D string. Then again the preferred fingering for the same notes pizzicato might be for the longer, thinner string. Experienced players will probably drift towards the same fingerings, give or take a bit. You might see all these intricacies when watching good orchestras on YouTube.
 
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#12
I only get involved in fingerings in two cases: if a member of the section asks, I will show them my fingering and maybe an alternative. The only other situation is if I hear something that sticks out - an awkward shift or string crossing. I should point out I'm talking about amateur players. Pros should need no guidance when it comes to fingerings, I would have thought
 
#15
neilG said:
^^Is that for real? Some kind of joke? I've played the piece dozens of times and that passage is completely playable. That's pathetic.
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This is the mighty LPO bass section and these are fine musicians more than capable of playing it as written! I suspect it may have been what Dudamel was after - a bit of smooth chromatic texture under the bluster of the brass ...but who knows the backstory [I am tempted to give the section the benefit of the doubt because of their extraordinary musicianship]!

Brings back happy memories of hours of practice dialing into the chromatic runs of first movement of Sibelius 1 where's its exposed, as fast as the Verdi and needs to be accurate so that it doesn't align with what the celli are doing.

Interestingly and relative to the original post, we probably had 3 or four variations on the chromatic run fingering in the section which were never discussed

 
#18
Andy Mopley said:
Agree, but is that freedom also allowed on where on the fingerboard the passage may be played? I am getting that this is the case - unless otherwise asked for.
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Yes, fingering means any fingering. I wouldn't dream of asking for a specific fingering except for special cases like the Mahler passage mentioned above. Also, if someone in the section keeps making an audible and disruptive shift that nobody else is doing, a diplomatic suggestion might be in order.
 
#19
Our regional orchestra played a Haydn symphony a few years ago( I forget which one) that had a lot of passage work scale-type stuff. There were I think three different fingering concepts being used, including all four fingers, across-the-strings in position(more or less), and more vertically. I think it's interesting that the taller players used the four-finger and horizontal approaches. The principal was open to whatever worked for the individual players. He used the four-finger approach himself.
 

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