Double Bass Seeking tips for EQing acoustic bass for band setting

[N. Kentucky Bass]

I tried this on the BG/amp section and didn't get much response, so I'm hoping you DB folks can share some insight.

I recently acquired a Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass guitar to get a pseudo upright sound in a jazz/jazz rock setting. It's a 4-string fretless strung with Status black nylon tapewounds. My amp is a Genz Benz ShuttleMAX12 so there are endless EQ options. The cab is a Genz Benz NEOX-112T, which has a 12 inch neo driver and tweeter.

No problems EQing in my studio. I'm looking for pointers to EQ in a band setting to get a warm, upright tone. Not particularly into string noise. The particular rooms/outdoor settings where we play obviously will factor, but it would be great to hear general rules of thumb so when I finally take this out live, I won't get caught like a deer in headlights while trying to make the tone right.

(For the record, I used to own a double bass but due to the harsh climate where I live, had too much trouble with wood cracking, etc. to keep it - hence the easier to manage acoustic bass guitar.)

 

[MNAirHead]

Have you plugged the hole yet?

 

[TroyK]

I've heard that set up sound very good once before. A local guy used to have one of those an he got a really good sound out of it. I'm not the eq expert here, but you may check the impediance on your amp and the impediance output of the pickup on your guitar. Normally with a piezo pickup you need to an impediance buffer between it and the amp to make your sound more natural. Without it, it tends to sound a bit "stringy".

Someone will come along behind me with more specific eq advice, I'm sure.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Have you plugged the hole yet?

Good point - forgot to mention I had a custom sound buster made to fit the teardrop hole. The bass has a built in Fishman Prefix Plus preamp, which includes a "notch" dial that's supposed to also help minimize feedback. Luckily, this isn't a massive volume situation, but I guess feedback issues are always lurking in the background.

 

[moles]

You mentioned you're trying to cut string noise (among other things, presumably). Depending on your bass, that range should be around 1 - 1.5 kHz.

As far as making another instrument sound like a DB - I still think it's possible. I remember Will Lee talking about it in an old BP mag. This was on his electric bass - but his set up consisted of (if I remember correctly) palm-muting the strings, and putting his signal through a very short delay (10ms, 15 maybe?) with almost zero feedback, and then through a long-ish reverb. What you get is a short burst of midrange for the note to speak, and a bit more sustain on the low end. Maybe this is more than you need on an ABG - but it might be worth the effort to play with some of it.

 

[B String]

Even though my ABG has a preamp on it, I still use a Sansamp
Acoustic Di too. I lower the mids and highs a little and boost
the lows a little on the bass. Then on the Sansamp I cut a
little at about 1-2k. Every bass is a little different but this
works for me. I (hopefully) have an articulate sound that still
supports the band.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

As far as making another instrument sound like a DB - I still think it's possible. I remember Will Lee talking about it in an old BP mag. This was on his electric bass - but his set up consisted of (if I remember correctly) palm-muting the strings, and putting his signal through a very short delay (10ms, 15 maybe?) with almost zero feedback, and then through a long-ish reverb. What you get is a short burst of midrange for the note to speak, and a bit more sustain on the low end. Maybe this is more than you need on an ABG - but it might be worth the effort to play with some of it.

I have experimented with palm muting, as well as use of a thin foam mute woven through the strings. All well and good. But "there's nothing like the real thing" (or as close to it as you can get), which is why I'm going the ABG route. You can't beat its - well, acoustic tone! I also prefer the ABG's rapid decay, which is more like the DB -- especially for walking.

With the EB, I often am boosting the lower-mids to punch through the band mix and create a more prounced sonic slot between the kick drum and guitar (or in this case, an electric mandolin w/effects). Is this the right strategy for ABG? I was also curious about opinions on how much the tweeter should be on or attenuated. With EB, I frequently turn off most of the tweeter. But I've heard other DB players express dissatisfaction with performance of tweeterless cabs, so there must be something to consider on that point.

 

[tornadobass]

You've covered a lot of it, but this article from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] might add a couple of ideas.

 

[MR PC]

Read the article. That's all about "faking" upright.

Here's what I'd do if I had to" fake" upright with a ABG.

Turn off the tweeter, that will pretty much eliminate finger noise. Use a high pass filter for the sub lows, then work with trimming the primary feedback freq of your instrument, I'd guess somewhere in the low mids. Pretty basic stuff.

You might want to chuck the pickup unit in the Tacoma, if you ever check out the new pick up Richard Barbera has designed for flat top instruments.

Switch your playing technique from the electric bass guitar. Study some upright technique. Don't be offended please, this the DB side after all!

I dig ABG. Great tools for recording, or sitting around the living room. On stage they need so much proccessing, you take so much away that there is barely any artifact left of the instrument's actual acoustic tone.

The one that Will Lee played on the Phoebe Snow records was the old Ernie Ball. I'm sure they miked it in the studio, sounded wonderful. But Ron Carter's upright sounded even better on the same record, IMO.

The Ernie Ball is a modified Mexican Guittaron, simple and clean, with a true sound. Too bad they are long out of production.

Don't "fake" upright. Get an upright and start wood shedding.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

You might want to chuck the pickup unit in the Tacoma, if you ever check out the new pick up Richard Barbera has designed for flat top instruments.

Do you have a link to this? Nothing is mentioned for ABG on his website:
http://www.barberatransducers.com/

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

You've covered a lot of it, but this article from [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] might add a couple of ideas.

Nice article, but it's all about using and EQing an electric guitar as a DB. I'm interested in EQing an acoustic bass guitar in a band setting, which is a different animal and requirement.

For example, in my studio, I accidentally found that a "scooped" EQ setting worked quite well with the ABG. And I can't stand scooped EQ on my EB! Which makes me suspicious that the EQ strategies I've used with EB will work wtih ABG on stage.

Anyone out there who's battle tested EQ on ABG in a live setting? It would be great to hear what works and what doesn't.....

 

[chuck3]

I play in a jazz combo occasionally with Richard Barbera. He has modded his own instruments (violins) such that they are very cool and different - he plays 6 string violins with his own special electronics.

I have not seen guitar products from him either, though.

 

[Marc Piane]

Instead of trying to make your bass sound like something its not why don't you find the things about that bass that you can accentuate? That is the thing about acoustic instruments vs electric ones. You can make an EB sound like like lots of things because, aside from a little tone from the body, the pickup and how you eq has a big impact on sound. An acoustic instrument is the opposite. I've tried lots of different pickups on my DB and it always sounds like my DB.

 

[longfinger]

It will help if you have a friend come to your rehearsals or sound check and adjust the EQ for you while you play. (Or have him play, while you adjust the EQ.) What sounds best in a band setting is not the same as what sounds best by yourself. So much depends on where the other musical instruments are in the sound spectrum.

For example:
>With the EB, I often am boosting the lower-mids to punch through the band mix and create a more prounced sonic slot between the kick drum and guitar (or in this case, an electric mandolin w/effects).

Make sure the mandolin channel has all the lows below 196hz rolled off. And the frequencies above a certain point for the bass drum. Those two might have to have the EQ adjusted to make room for you.

Ideally, the professional, on time, sober and highly skilled sound engineer working the gear for your shows would take care of this for you. You'd just play and he or she will adjust as needed.

ha ha ha

 

[MR PC]

Outside of fiddling with eq, the best tone controls you've got are your ears and hands.

Once you have a handle on how you sound best unplugged, you should have an easy time dialing the sound in with the equipment you've mentioned owning.

And you might check out TB member fdeck's handy little hi pass filter box.

 

[Lumpy]

Set all your EQ controls to flat.

Play with the band and adjust the gain until you are at an appropriate volume in the mix.

Then cut those frequencies that you feel are wolfing, honking, quacking or any other personified term that doesn't contribute to the timbre you're seeking.

A modestly experienced audio engineer, familiar with SR'ing acoustic instruments should be able to call out the freq's by ear/memory. If the person you have twiddling the pots isn't as "ear experienced", simply have him/her try cutting faders,
ONE AT A TIME, starting at perhaps 800 Hz and moving DOWN. ie cut a few dB at 800, evaluate. If not what you're looking for, then return 800 to flat, then cut 630 a couple of dB. If that's not it, return 630 to flat and cut 500 etc.

Once you find the EQ freq that "works", bracket the pot on either side by lowering each of those by about half the amount that you lowered the "golden" frequency.

Then go back to 800 and work UP. ie lower 1000 Hz, evaluate, and repeat the above experiments, ONE band at a time. You may or may not find a second notch.

Every time you settle on a lowered EQ point, compensate for the reduced volume by increasing the gain a tiny bit.

Obviously, if you don't have 31 bands of EQ, modify the experiments appropriately to the number of EQ points you have in your system.

If you're running into a house PA, do all of that AFTER the FOH engineer rings out the room. EQ'ing for room acoustics should be different than EQ'ing for individual instrument timbre.


Craig 'Lumpy' Lemke

Link Removed

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Obviously, if you don't have 31 bands of EQ, modify the experiments appropriately to the number of EQ points you have in your system.

Thanks for that, Lumpy! I don't have a 31 band EQ, but my Genz Benz ShuttleMAX12 amp does provide these controls:

Low - 80Hz shelving curve w/15db of cut or boost

Low-mid - center can be swept from 150Hz to 2kHz, and there's a separate 12db cut/boost knob.

High-mid - center can be swept from 300Hz to 3.5KHz, with a separate 12db cut/boost knob.

High - 3.5kHz shelving curve w/15dB of cut or boost.

Where would you suggest focusing attention for the ABG within the paramaters of my amp's controls?

 

[Lumpy]

...Where would you suggest focusing attention for the ABG within the paramaters of my amp's controls?

Same concept, only you're dealing with just four EQ points instead of 31.

Start with it all FLAT. Turn the volume up to reasonable level. Then cut ONE AT A TIME, each of the 4 EQ points. After each cut, bring the gain up so that you're at the volume level you started at. Starting at one of the midrange controls would probably be more reasonable than starting at the extreme highs or lows.

Always CUT, never boost. If you feel like you need to boost something, then cut the others and increase the gain.


Lumpy

Oooh!
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