Separating the pros from the amateurs; a list

[jd-ns]

For me, "professional" articulates what you can expect when you hire me,not how often I work.

If I hired the 10 year old kid down the street for $1 to play bass for me at a gig and he shows up on time, with a good attitude and does a great job, would it be accurate to say that I used a professional bass player for the job?

 

[fdeck]

If I hired the 10 year old kid down the street for $1 to play bass for me at a gig and he shows up on time, with a good attitude and does a great job, would it be accurate to say that I used a professional bass player for the job?

See post #110.

I suspect "professional" is a term that can never be defined precisely enough to exclude all possible counter-examples that can be constructed.

 

[xUptheIronsx]

If I hired the 10 year old kid down the street for $1 to play bass for me at a gig and he shows up on time, with a good attitude and does a great job, would it be accurate to say that I used a professional bass player for the job?

in my world yes...in fact, if you had the kid come play for free, and he showed up on time, knew the music, had a good attitude etc, he is more professional than the 30 year old guy who has been "playing" for years, but shows up late, not knowing the music and with a bad attitude and an ego a mile wide.

To me age has nothing to do with professionalism. There is a wisdom that older players should have - but don't always - that the 10 year old might not have, but I also have had many middle school and high school students I have worked with that were WAAAYYYY more professional than some of the adults I have worked with.

 

[Moley13]

I don't think anyone would argue that 'professional musician' fits for you since you do various music-related jobs to make a living. 'Professional bass player' however, doesn't (which was my original point) in the same way that someone who makes their living landscaping (professional landscaper) doesn't go around claiming to be a professional hole-digger when in reality it is only one of numerous jobs they do.

Fair enough, I suppose.

I wasn't necessarily talking about myself, I was wanting to promote discussion around the fact that there are barely any people who make their living solely from playing bass. E.g., Victor Wooten does clinics, has lots of endorsements, probably a few (intermittent/high profile) students. I would not say he makes his living solely playing bass.

If you're a professional musician (a term you're happy with to describe the diverse players), who plays bass as their primary instrument... well... are you a "pro bassist" (term stolen from the OP)??

If you'd rather stop talking about this line of inquiry, and dismiss is as a technicality, that's cool, I just though it might be interesting

 

[Moley13]

If I hired the 10 year old kid down the street for $1 to play bass for me at a gig and he shows up on time, with a good attitude and does a great job, would it be accurate to say that I used a professional bass player for the job?

Can I meet this kid? That's a damn good rate for somebody who shows up on time, has a good attitude, and does a great job.

In all seriousness though, I think it means he is potentially a professional. He exhibits the traits ("symptoms", if you like) of being a pro, but if that's his one and only gig ever then I think he's not a pro by our other definitions (around doing it for a living, or being ABLE to). He may not, for example, be able to get his own gigs - something a pro would need to do.

Perhaps this reveals that the pro "behaviors" listed and discussed in the OP/other posts need to also be checked against a temporal dimension for validity. An instance where an individual acts like a pro could represent a "special case", which is necessary but not sufficient for determining pro status.

Good thought experiment. Got more?

 

[Dead Set Dave]

I played nearly 50 gigs last year, most of them paying.... my musical prowess extends to tremlo picking and punk jumps. In the words of Fat Mike "I'm a rock 'n' roll star, I ain't no musician"

 

[Kmonk]

I disagree with the entire list. There are plenty of pros who do exactly what the OP claims amateurs do. The items on the list have more to do with competency and playing what is right for the song than differences between being a professional or an amateur.

 

[fdeck]

Interestingly enough, in the classical music world, all of the habits of professionalism are taught to beginners, and are expected of the kids playing in groups such as the Wisconsin Youth Symphony Orchestras. And I even remember my middle school band teacher lecturing us on professionalism.

 

[ggunn]

Amateur players will likely

• Play more notes than necessary

Who decides how many notes are necessary? When I play a Grateful Dead song I play a LOT fewer notes than Phil Lesh does. Does that make me more of a"pro" than Phil?

 

[Dead Set Dave]

Who decides how many notes are necessary? When I play a Grateful Dead song I play a LOT fewer notes than Phil Lesh does. Does that make me more of a"pro" than Phil?

There's absolutely different interpretations of what is right, and wrong. Some of the best music comes from not 'doing the right thing'. Normal, correct and such can also mean boring and uninspired. Listen to Matt Freeman from Rancid play. He throws in notes like their on sale, and it's awesome. I get the dudes point, but whatever a 'pro' is, it sounds like something I don't want to be. I might just become an alcoholic instead, it sounds more fun

This is probably why one recording engineer told me I was the worst bass player he'd ever heard. So, there is that...

 

[richntiff]

Ugg. Op desperately wants to consider himself a pro that is the superior musician to the majority of his counterparts. Whatever. I played a gig last night and they were dancing on the tables - to me, that was what it's all about.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Change register for no reason

Here's the problem I see with condemning musicians for doing something, anything "for no reason"

Just because you have a reason doesn't mean you should do it. That's not enough.
You need more than just a "reason" for doing anything on your instrument; arguably you need a good reason that translates directly to a more compelling musical experience for the listener.

And frankly, lots of musicians are ill-equipped to provide such a justification for any of their actions. Conversely, lots of the musicians who can provide a justification don't recognize that their reason is a personal, internal justification (or excuse) that doesn't directly impact anything the listener hears.

So I tend to be very careful about accusing anyone of doing something "for no reason".

Besides, sometimes "because it sounds cool" is reason enough...and that includes changing register.

 

[PortlandBass77]

I agree with everything but the first statement, there is no set limit on how many notes are necessary and it varies by the listener. Also the main difference between a professional and an amateur in the music industry is that a professional takes in more money than they invest, while an amateur invests more money than they take in.

 

[squidtastic]

I'm a semi-pro bassist who is fairly well schooled in music theory and studied with some really good teachers. A recent experience had me thinking about how a bassist who plays in an "amateurish" fashion is different than a bassist who plays like a professional. So I made a list, and welcome comments and additions.
Amateur players will likely

• Play more notes than necessary
• Not take into account what the singer or the rest of the band might be doing
• Change register for no reason
• not put what is best for the song ahead of everything else
• fail to articulate notes in order to enhance the time feel
• execute rhythmically inaccurate lines and fail to lock in with the other players

While some of what you say is arguably true, why do you feel the need to make a list?

 

[David Jayne]

I would take issue with items one and three. There's a difference between more notes than necessary and too many notes. Change register for no reason : not sure what you mean. I'll sometimes move a bass part to a chord tone of the root for a moment, to create interest and color. People seem to like it.